Hereford to Hooton, off peak restriction?

[andypops]

Hi,

I am looking at travelling from Hereford to Hooton on Thursday (23/01/14), at any time after 1400.

I intend to return either Monday or Tuesday (27-28/01/14), at any time after 0700.

I have a 16-25 railcard. I typically purchase an off peak open return (or whatever it's called since it last changed!) from the booking office at Hereford.


Using the NR planner, it shows that on the outbound journey, only the 1427 and 1627 ex Hfd (via Chester only) may be used with the off-peak return. Print-screen attached below.

The last time I made this journey (November last year, pre timetable change perhaps?) I was able to travel via either Chester, or to Crewe and onwards to Chester. I much prefer this route if possible, as it gives me a small amount of time for spotting and "refreshment". Have there been any rule changes for this route since last November which I haven't heard of?

Without wanting to open a can of worms, I seem to remember an easement regarding travel between Chester and Crewe, something to do with travel to either for interchange is permitted, or something like that? Can anyone shed light on this?



Likewise, for the return journey, NR planner shows I am able to travel from Hooton using any departure from 0742 (inc. via Crewe), but not the 0712 ex Hooton (via Ctr and Cre). Is there any reason for this?

Thanks!

 

[Searle]

Seems to be some odd going ons on the NRE website, because if you click details for the 15:08, it takes you to the details for the 16:27! Don't ask why it's doing that.

You are actually allowed to take any train you want, including the 15:08 or the 15:53. Check the East Coast website for itineraries, it offers them correctly in this scenario.

The off peak bit actually means that you can't break your journey on the way out, but you are allowed to get any train you want. You can break your journey on the return portion though.

Oh and I don't think the ticket is valid via Crewe, NRE seems to suggest that it's not, sorry!

 

[andypops]

From the Routing Guide (last updated 11 Sept 2013)...

The Routing Point Identifier (Pink Pages, Section B) shows both HFD and HOO as routing points.

The Permitted Route Identifier (Yellow Pages, Section C), on page 644, shows permitted routes between Hereford to Hooton as using (maps):

AW HB+BJ HB+BM+NO HB+BM+NR HB+BV


The first map - AW - shows HFD to Chester, and Hooton directly linked to Chester. Am I right to assume this means HFD--> HOO must go directly via Chester?


Oddly, maps HB+BJ and HB+BV show Hereford to Birmingham, and Birmingham to North Wales. Hooton is reached via Crewe AND Chester in this case.

Even more oddly, the combination HB+BM+NO, and HB+BM+NR all show Hereford to Brum, Brum to Manchester, Manchester to Hooton (via Earlestown / Warrington and Liverpool!).



From what I understand, the routing guide suggests that the permitted routes to Hooton from Hereford are to go directly via Chester, or to go via Worcester, Brum, Crewe and Chester. Apparently, I can't travel from Shrewsbury to Crewe validly??
Instinct tells me all this is wrong, as the NR planner shows routes via Crewe; my previous problem being whether an off-peak restriction had been applied!

Particularly, the routes shown via Birmingham smell fishy; I've not seen them on the journey planner! (Anecdotally, I was told several times by an LM guard when travelling LIV--CDF and LIV--HFD to "Change at New Street", even though this was contrary to the NR planner...).

Can anyone help unravel this? And, importantly, answer my questions in my first post? Thanks!



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Thanks for your reply. Yes, the NR website does seem to be a bit screwy this year so far!

I was aware of the BoJ restriction on the outbound portion of the journey. The last time I looked, the Arriva off-peak restriction began after 0830, and I wanted to make sure that was still the case!

Oh and I don't think the ticket is valid via Crewe, NRE seems to suggest that it's not, sorry!

That's interesting, could you elaborate? The routing guide supports what you're saying, but I've been doing this route for a few years now, and the guards (usual caveat about them not being walking routing guides etc) always say to change at Crewe, rather than change at Shrewsbury, which would be appropriate in this case.

Furthermore, the 1508 ex Hfd shown by NRE gives an itinerary arrival at Crewe 1629, followed by 1649 Crewe --> Chester (arr 1713), and 1731 Chester --> Hooton.

So, how is the ticket not valid via Crewe? [not being in any way sarcastic; I'm genuinely interested in your POV]

Thanks!

 

[bb21]

From the Routing Guide (last updated 11 Sept 2013)...

The last major update of the Routeing Guide was on 23rd December 2013.

The Routing Point Identifier (Pink Pages, Section B) shows both HFD and HOO as routing points.

The Permitted Route Identifier (Yellow Pages, Section C), on page 644, shows permitted routes between Hereford to Hooton as using (maps):

AW HB+BJ HB+BM+NO HB+BM+NR HB+BV

Correct AFAIK.

The first map - AW - shows HFD to Chester, and Hooton directly linked to Chester. Am I right to assume this means HFD--> HOO must go directly via Chester?

You may not travel via Crewe using this map.

Oddly, maps HB+BJ and HB+BV show Hereford to Birmingham, and Birmingham to North Wales. Hooton is reached via Crewe AND Chester in this case.

Correct.

Even more oddly, the combination HB+BM+NO, and HB+BM+NR all show Hereford to Brum, Brum to Manchester, Manchester to Hooton (via Earlestown / Warrington and Liverpool!).

Correct.

From what I understand, the routing guide suggests that the permitted routes to Hooton from Hereford are to go directly via Chester, or to go via Worcester, Brum, Crewe and Chester. Apparently, I can't travel from Shrewsbury to Crewe validly??

For some reason, no unfortunately by the look of things.

Instinct tells me all this is wrong, as the NR planner shows routes via Crewe; my previous problem being whether an off-peak restriction had been applied!

National Rail Enquiries shows routes via Crewe, but also shows that the £36.90 Hereford - Hooton Off-Peak Return is not valid on those services. If you select an itinerary which involves travelling Hereford - Crewe - Chester - Hooton, NRE tells you to purchase two tickets, one for Hereford - Chester (which is valid via Crewe on map combination AW+CH), and another for Chester - Hooton. See attachments 1-3.

Particularly, the routes shown via Birmingham smell fishy; I've not seen them on the journey planner! (Anecdotally, I was told several times by an LM guard when travelling LIV--CDF and LIV--HFD to "Change at New Street", even though this was contrary to the NR planner...).

NRE does not show all permitted routes. The background data that NRE use are different to what the published Routeing Guide on the ATOC website says sometimes.

Can anyone help unravel this? And, importantly, answer my questions in my first post? Thanks!

Likewise, for the return journey, NR planner shows I am able to travel from Hooton using any departure from 0742 (inc. via Crewe), but not the 0712 ex Hooton (via Ctr and Cre). Is there any reason for this?

AFAIK the itinerary produced by NRE when you specify no via points does not show the 0742 as going via Crewe. The 0742 from Hooton arrives Chester at 0756, connecting into the 0819 which arrives at Hereford at 1009. See attachment 4.

I was aware of the BoJ restriction on the outbound portion of the journey. The last time I looked, the Arriva off-peak restriction began after 0830, and I wanted to make sure that was still the case!

Off-peak restrictions apply based on which specific ticket you have. There is no blanket rule across the board. The Hereford - Hooton Off-Peak Return has restriction 8A, which imposes no time-restriction on when you can travel, but does not allow break of journey on the outward portion.

That's interesting, could you elaborate? The routing guide supports what you're saying, but I've been doing this route for a few years now, and the guards (usual caveat about them not being walking routing guides etc) always say to change at Crewe, rather than change at Shrewsbury, which would be appropriate in this case.

I would be extremely surprised if you ever encounter any guard who claims that your proposed route is not valid. It is reasonable, and that is what matters to the overwhelming majority of staff. The omission in the Routeing Guide is simply an oversight I suspect. It is inevitable that a document of this size would contain a number of errors.

Furthermore, the 1508 ex Hfd shown by NRE gives an itinerary arrival at Crewe 1629, followed by 1649 Crewe --> Chester (arr 1713), and 1731 Chester --> Hooton.

But it also shows that the fare you wanted to use is not valid with this itinerary.

So, how is the ticket not valid via Crewe? [not being in any way sarcastic; I'm genuinely interested in your POV]

I think you can judge for yourself now.

In any case, buying a Hereford - Chester Off-Peak Return and two Chester - Hooton Anytime Day Singles is cheaper than your ticket, and would be indisputably valid for the journey you intend to make.

 

[andypops]

Thank you very much for your very detailed, helpful and informative post.

All the best


Andy

 

[kieron]

NRE says a Shrewsbury-Hooton return is valid via Crewe. That may be a better option for you, as it's only £28.75 (£16.75+£12) for that and a Hereford-Shrewsbury return with a railcard, £42.60 without.

 

[bb21]

That's a very good find. Shrewsbury - Hooton appears to be very cheap and indeed valid via Crewe.

 

[andypops]

Thanks, that is a very good find.

However, for the return portion, the 0742 ex-Hooton (single change at Chester) is no longer shown? (I did check to remove the "via Crewe" stipulation )

This won't be a problem, it just appears confusing because later departures from Hooton (eg 0849) are shown by NRE, with a single change at Chester. My (weak) understanding of the ticketing is that the return portion of the tickets aren't constrained by any time restriction, so this isn't the reason. I'm probably wrong though.


Thanks again for the ongoing help.

 

[bb21]

If I remove the "Via Crewe" requirement, NRE correctly shows me the 0742, changing at Chester, and arriving Shrewsbury at 0913, and the Shrewsbury - Hooton Off-Peak Return ticket is definitely valid.

I don't think you need to worry. It is a reasonable route and I seriously doubt that you will encounter any hassle.

 

[andypops]

This is just to aid discussion / for reference.

The Routing Guide shows Shrewsbury to Hooton using maps AW and AW+CH.

Map AW clearly shows Shrewsbury to Hooton via Wrexham (and Chester).
Map CH shows both Wrexham-Chester-Hooton and Crewe-Chester-Hooton.


So, again, I would have guessed they're both valid routes with the ticket suggested by Kieron?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I remove the "Via Crewe" requirement, NRE correctly shows me the 0742, changing at Chester, and arriving Shrewsbury at 0913, and the Shrewsbury - Hooton Off-Peak Return ticket is definitely valid.

Just tried again. My bad! Mozilla was having trouble deselecting the via option. Thanks.

I don't think you need to worry. It is a reasonable route and I seriously doubt that you will encounter any hassle.

That's also true. I'm not worried; ATW guards are generally some of the most friendly I've encountered (with few exceptions), and I think they'd see it. I've been told before to change at Crewe, and there's no risk of being PF'd if there was a problem. I just wanted to try to understand things a bit better!


Thanks all once again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To continue the topic slightly...

I've just bought the two off-peak returns suggested above; Hfd--> Shr (£16.75V) and Shr--> Hoo (£11.35X).

However, the booking office clerk at Hereford (who are almost always on the ball when it comes to ticketing and advice) pointed out that for the return leg, travel before 10am between HOO and SHR would not be permitted using this ticket as the minimum fare using a YP ticket is £12 before 10am.

I guess we hadn't thought of that!

The clerk's advice is that this restriction applies both ways, not just on the outbound portion of the ticket. If that is the case, some splits I was sold back in 2009-2011 were outside the regulations!

Can anyone confirm this please?

The difference isnt't a problem for me, however my plans currently allow me to travel after 10am. If my plans do change, is there any way to excess the ticket at Hooton to the minimum fare to allow travel?

 

[bb21]

The clerk was correct, which is why kieron pointed out in Post 6 that the price for the Hooton leg you pay is £12 and not £11.35, which would allow you to use the train before 1000. Apologies if this was not made clear.

You may want to go back to the ticket office if possible and ask for it to be excessed to the minimum fare, or I think you can have it excessed onboard (or at the ticket office) as well on the day of travel.

 

[andypops]

Thanks. Sorry, my mistake.

And with a case of "just my luck", the guard on his ticket check just now asked which route I was using (I'm on a Cardiff-Manchester, via Crewe service), and why I'm going to Crewe. He seems to think its not valid (I didn't give an explanation) but doesn't appear too bothered.

 

[kieron]

Sorry, I should have mentioned the railcard thing. NRE doesn't mention minimum fares, but I had checked.

The attachment shows what you get if the return journey can be before or after 10am, two different off-peak returns with the same description. It also shows that the "without Javascript" version of its page isn't quite as polished as it could be (turning Javascript off improves the performance of this site on my browser, but isn't always so useful elsewhere).

And I'd be surprised if any guard knows what tickets are and aren't valid on their train these days. Shrewsbury-Chester via Wrexham or Crewe does feel like obvious one, though.