Isn't the idea that fewer seats mean more room for standing passengers?
A 720 has a similar capacity pair of 165s.
Even the Class 450s once adjusted for inflation come out at around 2 million per car. Class 450 Cost Inflation Calculator
That is correct, during the Regatta they had to pull one of the Basingstoke's
However the same units get used on longer runs, so if you want to do that you need a dedicated fleet like the 230s for those short branches with less seating capacity and more standing capacity.
Line speed is 50mph, on the Regatta Line however around Wargrave it drops to 10/30DMU for Shiplake viaduct.
Depends on the failure
Just to clarify, my proposal was to operate with tram trains or pure light rail vehicles, with line of sight signalling. There would be no need for all the extra signalling infrastructure if it was converted to LRV operation.
Oh maybe not truly not low cost, but a DOO light rail vehicle costs much less to operate than a Turbo.
Your not doing line of sight signalling on a bi-directional single line, hence for single line running trams still use signalling. For example at Mitcham Junction with signals protecting the single lines in both directions.
The turbo is already DOO on the Henley-on-Thames Branch, so the only cost saving is from the traction supply.
I would support that! We could even look at extending the Elizabeth Line to Henley on Thames considering 2 tph already terminate at Maidenhead so it won’t be too much of an inconvenience in terms of pathing atleast.
The benefit of electrication is if you want to provide through services which probably isn’t going to happen anytime soon on the Bourne End Branch (unless the line to Wycombe was built) but I can definitely see it work on the Henley on Thames branch.
A 345 requires 7 minutes to turnaround and currently they only have 3 minutes to turnaround, so a loop will be required on the branch to allow a 2tph Maidenhead extension to Henley and you have to deal with the Junction and Platform Margins at Twyford. Through Henley services MUST use platform 4, the Up Relief at Twyford.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a form of line of sight signalling for bi-di single lines on other light rail systems somewhere. Will have to see if I can find it.
Bear in mind tram/LRV drivers are typically less expensive to employ than heavy rail drivers.
It would be a nightmare, because you'd be blocking just the London bound or both relief lines at Twyford while the train crosses over from/to the Henley branch, and extending Shiplake/Wargrave stations to fit Class 345s would be very difficult with the railway bridge constraining Wargrave and the level crossing constraining Shiplake.
The 345s to feature Selective Door Operation for stations like Hanwell and Twyford, which could be used at Wargrave and Shiplake instead of full platform lengthening's, Wargrave in the Up direction is clear of bridges for a large enough distance to allow the platform to be extended to fit a full 345 in, at Shiplake if you close the foot crossing at the Up end of the station it should be possible to lengthen the platform enough so a 345 can be clear of the Road level crossing at the Down end of the station. Shiplake and Wargrave can currently fit 6 cars. Twyford foot crossing would also need to be resolved most likely by closure.
Class 345 SDO map at Woolwich.
So, if you go through years of processes to get all that sorted, you now have a service that is still extremely awkward operationally (due to the relief lines crossings at Twyford) and provides a massive excess of capacity outside of the peaks.
How about hourly + shuttle? So like when Elizabeth Line is on the line then shuttle is parked on Twyford Bay Platform. Then once Elizabeth Line is back at Twyford then shuttle departs and once shuttle is back at Twyford then Elizabeth Line departs.
For a decent light rail or tram service your looking at double tracking the full Regatta line apart from through Shiplake and maybe across the Viaduct.
Using the XX:15 off Maidenhead passes Twyford at XX:23 which would then get to Henley at XX:35 + 7 minutes Turnaround so it can depart at XX:42 which would pass Twyford at XX:54 and reach Maidenhead at XX:01+1.
Double tracking or longer loops are much cheaper and easier to construct to light rail standards.
They will cost virtually the same amount for the Pway side of things. You will still need extra rolling stock for the Henley Regatta to match the demand. Assuming you get the 399s, you would require 5 units to match the ~1,000 passengers a 7-car turbo can carry, both seated and standing. This would give a frequency of 10 trams per hour per direction, if they all ran as single units. With the amount of downtime, this high frequency might prove an issue for the Shiplake Level crossing and the single-track section through Shiplake station. Shiplake Viaduct might also be a challenge for double tracking, which will also limit capacity.
Not at all. Tram track is typically much more lightweight, and I'm demonstrated how you can save on signalling.
Of course you'd use double units during Regatta, just like every other light rail system does in the peaks.
Possibly with heavy rail, but with lightweight trams, it's less likely to be an issue.
Lmao.
If you were to use tram-trains on the Thames Valley branches, Reading is a completely illogical place to place a depot. It's a very complex station to path empty stock movements through, and it's quite a long way from most of the branches.
Tram-Track is still around £1 million per single-track KM. You still need signal for the Junctions.
However, it still needs investigating.
There are six paths on the Mains which could be available for extra long-distance services per hour. They will be supportive of a tram stop as the next best thing. Also, these extra tracks would start at either Twyford Gardens or Twyford West and run to Charvill, where they would then run on-street. Thames Valley Trams
Trams would access the Reading depot with on-street running. Also, the Greenford Branch has no point in being a tram-train. Although that land exists it isn't really as good as you would think. Also storing the trams at Reading would allow for other benefits like the Basingstoke branch and North Downs Line could gain a tram-train service as well.
This is now getting fairly off topic with some kind of tram proposal like this. To stick just to looking at the Henley bit all you’re doing is significantly increasing journey times. Getting out of Reading on that will take far longer than the 5 minutes to Twyford. What about anyone coming from London, as a significant amount of people do? Their journey time will be extended even more.
You would agree to drop from the 7 minute standard value for a 345. You would get that down to 4 with not a lot of hassle at Henley.
The GWR Up Didcot Stopper, passes Twyford at XX:18 & XX:48 so you would be unable to make use of the shorter journey time as Headway through Twyford 2 1/2 to 3 ,minutes. Also shortening turnaround time reduces reliability on Elizabeth Line.
Sometimes less is more. You seem very much a fan of making wild changes for the sake of it.
Quite.
I was comparing a 2 car + 3 car 165 and 720.
I personally think the best idea is electrifaction and operate as a shuttle with 387s and maybe a dynamic loop at Wargrave for the regatta and other events like railtours, however that isn't essential. This Loop would be around £50-60million.
It wouldn't need 7 minutes. Its only 345s requiring that. 4 minute turnarounds are standard for other stock.
Who is paying?
There are other units which require a 7 minute turnaround time.
Some would come from the Regatta, some would come from Local Government and some would come from national government.
Seeing that diagram, does anyone know why westbound trains cut out the back doors at Twyford when platform 3 is perfectly long enough for 9 car trains.
It is because of Platform 4 the Up Relief and the Elizabeth Line ASDO is GPS based.
That might be the ideal, but given the apparent success of BMU trials it would seem to me that batteries are going to be a much cheaper and easier solution, that can most likely be implemented sooner and with less fuss and controversy.
You seem completely off your rocker.