Helsby-ellesmere port line

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Interesting, Ta Ta build the cars,Essar power them etc, it really is up to the planning Authorities to sort them out, if they say by rail,it will be rail.
We have a mountain of a Coal Tip here in Wrexham from the old Bersham pit near the Wrexham By Pass, it will be moved over nine years by rail, this is the sole reason for permission being granted, no ifs or buts a new rail junction is to be built by the contractor off the Wrexham/Shrewsbury line, millions of tons are involved.Another reason to double the line to Saltney

Bob

When will the services to remove the coal tip residue be commencing. Will water-spriinkling units be part of the rail infrastructure as I suppose it will be open hoppers used to convey the residue.

 

[Gareth]

SOme old news from todays Chester Chron..
http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/c...o-halton-local-transport-plan-59067-28557216/
I wonder if this would affect the Ellesmere Port to Helsby line if the Curve project went ahead?

I guess Merseyrail wouldn't be too pleased with the idea of a rival TOC providing services to Liverpool from Ellesmere Port and, especially, Chester.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I guess Merseyrail wouldn't be too pleased with the idea of a rival TOC providing services to Liverpool from Ellesmere Port and, especially, Chester.

Serves them right, if they'd wanted to do it themselves, they could have.

 

[Gareth]

I'm pretty sure the route over the curve is beyond Merseyrail's franchise remit. Any such services would surely be given to Northern over Merseyrail.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm pretty sure the route over the curve is beyond Merseyrail's franchise remit. Any such services would surely be given to Northern over Merseyrail.

Agreed. Just how far will Merseyrail be allowed to exchange their third rail electrification, before someone at the MfT thinks to see how strategic rail planning will require a view of Merseyrail expansion.

 

[First class]

Halton Curve re-openings should see:

1) Liverpool-Runcorn-Helsby-Ellesmere Port-Hooton (to replace Parly services) - ATW
2) Liverpool-Runcorn-Helsby-Chester-[[Llandudno/Holyhead]] - ATW

Don't think it is appropriate for Merseyrail services though. A connection to the WCML would have to be installed near Liverpool Sth Parkway which would be very difficult to do!

Also, a new freight flow started today from East Midlands to Ellesmere Port (via Helsby) delivering sand to Quinn Glass near Elton. Runs twice weekly, Weds & Fri.

Merseyrail won't be too interested really, the route BIRKENHEAD fare is MUCH cheaper than Warrington/Any Permitted. A new route Runcorn fare would probably be created (if and when the Halton Curve is ever properly fixed).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Halton Curve re-openings should see:

1) Liverpool-Runcorn-Helsby-Ellesmere Port-Hooton (to replace Parly services) - ATW
2) Liverpool-Runcorn-Helsby-Chester-[[Llandudno/Holyhead]] - ATW

Don't think it is appropriate for Merseyrail services though. A connection to the WCML would have to be installed near Liverpool Sth Parkway which would be very difficult to do!

Also, a new freight flow started today from East Midlands to Ellesmere Port (via Helsby) delivering sand to Quinn Glass near Elton. Runs twice weekly, Weds & Fri.

Merseyrail won't be too interested really, the route BIRKENHEAD fare is MUCH cheaper than Warrington/Any Permitted. A new route Runcorn fare would probably be created (if and when the Halton Curve is ever properly fixed).

I like your reasoning . You state ATW for routes (1) and (2). ATW currently run the Bidston-Wrexham service that makes a connection with the existing Merseyrail services for passengers at Bidston.

Good to hear about the new freight flow from East Midlands to Ellesmere Port.
The more bulk movements by rail helps roads to be clear of such traffic. We still get plenty of bulk stone road traffic in the Greater Buxton area, despite bulk rail carrying from quarries, which makes road use fraught with danger at times on the roads in this region.

 

[northwichcat]

2) Liverpool-Runcorn-Helsby-Chester-[[Llandudno/Holyhead]] - ATW

It would be good to see a North Wales timetable recast to the following:

Liverpool-Runcorn-Chester-Wrexham-Hereford-Cardiff every 2 hours
Liverpool-Runcorn-Chester-Llandudno every 2 hours
Manchester-Chester-Llandudno every 2 hours
Manchester-Chester-Holyhead every 2 hours

Although the Welsh assembly won't allow it!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would be good to see a North Wales timetable recast to the following:

Liverpool-Runcorn-Chester-Wrexham-Hereford-Cardiff every 2 hours
Liverpool-Runcorn-Chester-Llandudno every 2 hours
Manchester-Chester-Llandudno every 2 hours
Manchester-Chester-Holyhead every 2 hours

Although the Welsh assembly won't allow it!

Do you think the result of the elections result for the Welsh Assembly as now known will see any real change in their way of viewing rail for freight and passenger services.

 

[young_gent]

Hi there, sorry for the bump to this thread!

I live in Elton so know what it is like, having a good service at two stops at either side and nothing at your station. Sad, I could use getting it into Liverpool but it will never happen because of politics.

Look at the state of the station:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:InceElton2.jpg

They bothered to put new signs up for some mad reason, why?!? Get us some damn trains! It would look grand having Merseyrail units pass through and might put some much needed energy back into the village!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Hi there, sorry for the bump to this thread!

I live in Elton so know what it is like, having a good service at two stops at either side and nothing at your station. Sad, I could use getting it into Liverpool but it will never happen because of politics.

Look at the state of the station:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:InceElton2.jpg

They bothered to put new signs up for some mad reason, why?!? Get us some damn trains! It would look grand having Merseyrail units pass through and might put some much needed energy back into the village!

Quite a bump!

Northern, who manage the station, repainted all of their stations about 4 years back, hence Ince & Elton etc were rebranded. I doubt third rail will ever reach Helsby etc whilst the current concerns exist. I would like to see maybe an hourly Warrington Bank Quay-Ellesmere Port service, with good connections for the Manchester / Chester and Llandudno services at one of the intermediate stations, and Anglo-Scotland / Birmingham connections at Bank Quay. Sadly, though, I doubt it will ever happen.

 

[First class]

Hi there, sorry for the bump to this thread!

I live in Elton so know what it is like, having a good service at two stops at either side and nothing at your station. Sad, I could use getting it into Liverpool but it will never happen because of politics.

Look at the state of the station:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:InceElton2.jpg

They bothered to put new signs up for some mad reason, why?!? Get us some damn trains! It would look grand having Merseyrail units pass through and might put some much needed energy back into the village!

Having been heavily involved on this line, particularly at Ince & Elton, indeed, I met my now ex partner there, I can say that the station is actually okay. It is a typical unstaffed station with basic facilities, but the posters are updated regularly and ISS litter pick weekly. Network Rail updated the crossing to the far platform not to long ago.

It is a long term aspiration of the Merseyside PTE (Merseytravel) to have the Merseyrail rail franchise extended to Helsby. With more pressing projects still short of funding, I can't see much happening on this line for a while.

Even when extra trains ran, (2-hourly), they were empty after Warrington, (Liverpool-Ellesmere Port via Warrington). I don't think there is demand in Elton or Stanlow for this line. Most people drive into Chester from Elton or work at nearby Stanlow. Even Hooton to Ellesmere Port is lucky to have such a frequent service, especially with the level of fare evasion on the 2 tph currently running.

The only way I can see this line being updated is a new sort of circular service, (Liverpool Central-Hooton-Ellesmere Port/Chester-Halton Curve-Liverpool L St)

 

[young_gent]

Quite a bump!

Northern, who manage the station, repainted all of their stations about 4 years back, hence Ince & Elton etc were rebranded. I doubt third rail will ever reach Helsby etc whilst the current concerns exist. I would like to see maybe an hourly Warrington Bank Quay-Ellesmere Port service, with good connections for the Manchester / Chester and Llandudno services at one of the intermediate stations, and Anglo-Scotland / Birmingham connections at Bank Quay. Sadly, though, I doubt it will ever happen.

Wow! Speedy response!

It's Réal Politik showing its ugly head again - if we had a nationalised rail service, we wouldn't have to put up with this franchise rubbish. and maybe we wouldn't have 25 year old DMUs still running essential services!

I would like a service full stop, frankly. Anything. You can see how bad it is by all the grass growing in between the track - it's the perfect excuse to build houses over it beeching style.

I very much enjoy trains and I hate stupid people get in the way of delivering people the service that is needed. :cry:

 

[merlodlliw]

Wow! Speedy response!

It's Réal Politik showing its ugly head again - if we had a nationalised rail service, we wouldn't have to put up with this franchise rubbish. and maybe we wouldn't have 25 year old DMUs still running essential services!

I would like a service full stop, frankly. Anything. You can see how bad it is by all the grass growing in between the track - it's the perfect excuse to build houses over it beeching style.

I very much enjoy trains and I hate stupid people get in the way of delivering people the service that is needed. :cry:

Welcome to Rail UK Forums, I am just up the hill from you,If the railways were again state owned, you would still have old stock, I agree the franchise system on the Wales & Borders is wanting and WAG in a hurry to get it,was sold a pup, but under state days I also do recall funding of the third rail into
Chester & into Helsby was available & on the table, but Shell stopped it between Port & Helsby ,due to flashovers as the track runs through the refinery(now Indian Owned).

Here in Wrexham, we almost lost the line into Chester,this was under state ownership, like the Cambrian a two hour up & down, now we have an hourly service Up & Down, single tracking prevents more, & hopefully it will be fulfilled back to dual on nine of its eleven miles or so, there has been massive lobbying for this,and I know we have become a nuisance to Ministers,but we did get WAG to put £30millions aside,then importantly ring fence it and got dam good politicians to keep on asking questions, the demand from Wrexham to Chester station is met by a 19 hour daily bus route, of which 12 hours see a shuttle at 12 minute intervals of which many of the buses are full to capacity(coincidently WAG bought the buses run by Arriva), and this can not continue to meet requirements , as for your line can you get evidence the requirement is there?
if you can, lobby like hell. It is also a freak that Northern manage the line surrounded by a Welsh Managed station at Helsby at one end and a Merseytravel station at Ellesmere Port.

Bob

 

[young_gent]

Welcome to Rail UK Forums, I am just up the hill from you,If the railways were again state owned, you would still have old stock, I agree the franchise system on the Wales & Borders is wanting and WAG in a hurry to get it,was sold a pup, but under state days I also do recall funding of the third rail into
Chester & into Helsby was available & on the table, but Shell stopped it between Port & Helsby ,due to flashovers as the track runs through the refinery(now Indian Owned).

Here in Wrexham, we almost lost the line into Chester,this was under state ownership, like the Cambrian a two hour up & down, now we have an hourly service Up & Down, single tracking prevents more, & hopefully it will be fulfilled back to dual on nine of its eleven miles or so, there has been massive lobbying for this,and I know we have become a nuisance to Ministers,but we did get WAG to put £30millions aside,then importantly ring fence it and got dam good politicians to keep on asking questions, the demand from Wrexham to Chester station is met by a 19 hour daily bus route, of which 12 hours see a shuttle at 12 minute intervals of which many of the buses are full to capacity(coincidently WAG bought the buses run by Arriva), and this can not continue to meet requirements , as for your line can you get evidence the requirement is there?
if you can, lobby like hell. It is also a freak that Northern manage the line surrounded by a Welsh Managed station at Helsby at one end and a Merseytravel station at Ellesmere Port.

Bob

Thankyou for that reply. (and everyone who as replied so far) I have heard the Shell story before, though I can't see how in this day and age we can't have some solution to that problem. I'm 17, so I can't really lobby, and I could possibly get signatures, but I don't know how many. It doesn't help our councillor is a right end, and is only interested in himself.

Here's an example of timetable stupidity - back when people used to get the train home from Frodsham high (now demolished) around 2008, and this was about 30 people, they decided it would be a smart move to move the timetable back half an hour. So then, no-one could get the train and they had no passengers.

You're right, it probably won't happen. Budgets are being pruned as it is. If it was a Merseyrail line they'd have to redo the station anyways, as to get to the other platform you have to walk across the track, and that wouldn't work with a 3rd rail.

Anyways, wishful thinking I guess. Thankyou for the responses, such a delightful forum. I'll stick around, I think.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Here's an example of timetable stupidity - back when people used to get the train home from Frodsham high (now demolished) around 2008, and this was about 30 people, they decided it would be a smart move to move the timetable back half an hour. So then, no-one could get the train and they had no passengers.

That surprises me, on branches such as the Whitby line, many trains are fitted around school hours.

If it was a Merseyrail line they'd have to redo the station anyways, as to get to the other platform you have to walk across the track, and that wouldn't work with a 3rd rail.

You could have a break in the third rail, similar to a level crossing, however, I do not know what the H&S is on this. Merseyrail have all bar four of their stations staffed (from first to last train as well!), but I doubt any of the intermediate stations would warrant it. They should give them a good clean up though.

Anyways, wishful thinking I guess. Thankyou for the responses, such a delightful forum. I'll stick around, I think.

Glad to hear it!

 

[Holly]

...
You're right, it probably won't happen. Budgets are being pruned as it is. If it was a Merseyrail line they'd have to redo the station anyways, as to get to the other platform you have to walk across the track, and that wouldn't work with a 3rd rail. ...

If you were to electrify Ellesmere Port to Frodsham modernly it would surely be 25kV OHLE, for that is what Chester-Warrington ultimately will be. It would make sense to do both in the same project, also Halton Curve, to reduce total costs.

But as someone else wrote, the opportunity was there, but it was lost. One day that may change, not any time soon. For now the line is primarily for freight, the passenger service is a place marker, nothing more.

Perhaps the biggest long term risk is that a 750vDC overhead (tram) connection from Ellesmere Port Merseyrail to Cheshire Oaks happens. 750vDC overhead on traditionally heavy rail lines is bad news, as per Altrincham.

 

[young_gent]

Just read this on Wikipedia about Ince and Elton:

Quinn Glass, (part of the Quinn Group) is located in Elton, and is currently undergoing expansion near this railway station. The Network Rail Route Strategy Guide states that Quinn Glass is interested in additional passenger and freight services on this line. It is also interpreted that planning permission requires Quinn Glass to maximise upon existing public transport links, as well as create new ones.[8] These plans could potentially lead to new services on this line, as well as improved station facilities and rolling stock.

If true, there's hope yet!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ince_and_Elton#Future

 

[Mutant Lemming]

If Merseyrail are going to extend their third rail electrification then surely
Ormskirk-Preston or Bidston-Wrexham would take priority over Ellesmere Port-Helsby. If Merseytravel are going to invest in electrification outside of it's area then at least the other two mentioned will actually draw people in to the commercial centres of Merseyside. I'm afraid electrifying (or even greatly improving the current service) are more the stuff of romantic dreams than any pressing need by the small population base at Elton and the relatively small workforce (who nearly all drive) at Stanlow & Thornton.
I recall catching trains from Rock Ferry to both stations for the hell of it in times past and no one else ever got on or off at either when there was an hourly service from early till late.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Just read this on Wikipedia about Ince and Elton:

Quinn Glass, (part of the Quinn Group) is located in Elton, and is currently undergoing expansion near this railway station. The Network Rail Route Strategy Guide states that Quinn Glass is interested in additional passenger and freight services on this line. It is also interpreted that planning permission requires Quinn Glass to maximise upon existing public transport links, as well as create new ones.[8] These plans could potentially lead to new services on this line, as well as improved station facilities and rolling stock.

If true, there's hope yet!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ince_and_Elton#Future

I was at the Quinn Glass plant last week and spoke with a manager there about a freight line. He confirmed a freight line into the plant is to go ahead. Apparently there was a delay due to a badger sett but this have now been resolved.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was at the Quinn Glass plant last week and spoke with a manager there about a freight line. He confirmed a freight line into the plant is to go ahead. Apparently there was a delay due to a badger sett but this have now been resolved.

The fact that Quinn Glass may well be soon in receipt of a freight line to serve its premises does not mean hopes for passenger services in that area should be raised unduly in the foreseeable future.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The fact that Quinn Glass may well be soon in receipt of a freight line to serve its premises does not mean hopes for passenger services in that area should be raised unduly in the foreseeable future.

..quite - especially as you need passengers around to use the service in the first place.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

..quite - especially as you need passengers around to use the service in the first place.

The pasengers used to be there, I was one and the service was regularly used. The service started to suffer badly when electrification was not extended to Helsby because of objections from Shell regarding the proximity of a plant to the third rail, a plant that no longer exists. How can you expect anyone to use the current service when it is being run on a parliamentary basis, ie train times that are of no use to anyone.

Personally I don't think electrification will take place ever and the line will be only used by freight in the main. I do believe that the Halton Curve will be reopened in the medium term and will provide direct access to Liverpool from North Wales, etc.

 

[tbtc]

How can you expect anyone to use the current service when it is being run on a parliamentary basis

Its not a "parliamentary" service.

Its not frequent, and I'm sure its the bare minimum that the franchise allows Northern to run, but thats not the same as a "parliamentary".

Actually the Helsby - Ellesmere Port service gets quite a few services a week compared to *some* branches, though nothing like as frequent as the line from Ellesmere Port to Birkenhead/ Liverpool.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It was never really used much when there was an hourly Rock Ferry-Helsby service up to 10pm.

 

[davelew99]

Not having a decent service to Ince & Elton is the reason why it's off the list of candidate locations when i move house.

If i could commute to Manchester from Ince & Elton to arrive there at 9am and leave at 5pm then it'd be useful.

I don't think the village is very big though so i can't see if being all that popular.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Not having a decent service to Ince & Elton is the reason why it's off the list of candidate locations when i move house.


QUOTE]

Being close to an oil terminal and a power station is why it woud be off my list for a retirement bungalow.

http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/i...41&sigi=14u7opnd8&sigb=11tr3pf71&fr=yfp-t-702

Scrub the power station bit - they demolished it a few years back (rememeber watching them build it).