Helsby-ellesmere port line

[connor7777]

I see what you mean, its the same as proposing 20 people to get a day return to Sugar loaf a few times a year.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Yeah I know, mind you I do buy tickets to destinations slightly further than I need them to boost up numbers! Same with Tees-side Airport station, once every so often, a group of 20 will get a train there to prove its importance, sadly for the other trains its dead!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

this is the reason why no one uses the service Mon/Sat, if you want to shift fresh air, this is the way

Helsby to E Port d 0603 0633 1517 1548

Ellesmere Port to Helsby d 0619 0656 1534 1604


Bob

Looking at these times would suggest use of these services for shift workers in the local industry.....not for general passenger useage. How many shift workers actually use these trains?

 

[merlodlliw]

Looking at these times would suggest use of these services for shift workers in the local industry.....not for general passenger useage. How many shift workers actually use these trains?

None and they don't tie in with any shifts rotas

 

[connor7777]

4 random times throughout the day then, basicly.

 

[tbtc]

4 random times throughout the day then, basicly.

Its just for inbetween times when the units aren't needed on busy routes elsewhere.

What I don't get about this route is why Northern bother running so many trains on it; if there's no demand then why bother with four trains a day? Why not one a week (Stockport - Staleybridge etc)? Is the franchise commitment four a day? Because, if so that's a waste of resources

 

[connor7777]

They are running the minimum allowed at the moment.

 

[tbtc]

They are running the minimum allowed at the moment.

In which case I'd expect/hope that this is revised downwards at the next franchise. Not like Northern have spare units to devote to empty routes like this,

 

[connor7777]

It's one of those lines where people campaign for extra trains, however they dont use the line themselves.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

It's one of those lines where people campaign for extra trains, however they dont use the line themselves.

The line was well used up to the point where it was electrified to Ellesmere Port and not electrified to Helsby. Since then it has gone downhill to the point no-one uses it.

 

[Spagnoletti]

Not so cheap now, seeing how NR cost, anyhow all in the past, a golden opportunity missed due to running a passenger line through an oil refinery.

The line is only kept open for freight to Shell & Kommena, the passenger service is just a pure token,run at times when no one will ever use them.


Bob

I'm pretty sure the only freight that uses the line at the moment are the coal trains from Manisty Wharf to Fiddlers Ferry. I don't think anything has come in/out of Shell or Kemira for a good while now, though there is talk of Quinn Glass moving sand in by rail.

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm pretty sure the only freight that uses the line at the moment are the coal trains from Manisty Wharf to Fiddlers Ferry. I don't think anything has come in/out of Shell or Kemira for a good while now, though there is talk of Quinn Glass moving sand in by rail.

The fertiliser factory uses some rail(Kommena or whatever its called) ,not sure about Shell,


Bob

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I'm pretty sure the only freight that uses the line at the moment are the coal trains from Manisty Wharf to Fiddlers Ferry. I don't think anything has come in/out of Shell or Kemira for a good while now, though there is talk of Quinn Glass moving sand in by rail.

Donkeys years for these. I remember an awful lot of freight coming down the line to West Cheshire Junction then turning for Mouldsworth down the single track past the old Helsby and Alvanley station. Freight then was from Shell, Shell Star (now Kemira), Vauxhalls and some occasional stone and coal hauled by some very nice diesels, double header 25s, 40s, 47s in the main with occasional surprises. The WCJ to Mouldsworth line was lifted in the early 90's I think. Perhaps with a change of ownership at Shell there may be a need for rail freight again?

 

[Spagnoletti]

There is a planning application for a 20MW biomass power station at Ince as part of the 'Resource Recovery Park', according to the website http://www.incepark.com/development/benefits, though I'm not sure the railhead they talk about is actually there yet.

There hasn't been rail traffic for Kemira for years, the sidings are marked OOU in my Quail.

 

[merlodlliw]

Donkeys years for these. I remember an awful lot of freight coming down the line to West Cheshire Junction then turning for Mouldsworth down the single track past the old Helsby and Alvanley station. Freight then was from Shell, Shell Star (now Kemira), Vauxhalls and some occasional stone and coal hauled by some very nice diesels, double header 25s, 40s, 47s in the main with occasional surprises. The WCJ to Mouldsworth line was lifted in the early 90's I think. Perhaps with a change of ownership at Shell there may be a need for rail freight again?

Nice chapter & verse about freight Rover.

As for "The Shell" as its known locally, I recall when all staff(thousands then) were given a free hot lunch,no matter where on the huge site, half of the" Port" never went hungry .

With all the underground pipe lines which I am not supposed to know about, there's not a great call for rail tankers, the last one used to supply Aberystwyth fuel farm, which is now supplied by road tanker.

Did not know Stanlow site was for sale.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is a planning application for a 20MW biomass power station at Ince as part of the 'Resource Recovery Park', according to the website http://www.incepark.com/development/benefits, though I'm not sure the railhead they talk about is actually there yet.

There hasn't been rail traffic for Kemira for years, the sidings are marked OOU in my Quail.

Next door neighbour used to work at Kemira & retired a few years ago, so you may well be right its OOU now,he spoke of fertiliser rail tankers

 

[sprinterguy]

4 random times throughout the day then, basicly.

Even four evenly spaced trains throughout the course of the day would be an improvement that might help it's case, the current times are abominable. The line is just an unfortunate victim of having been missed off the end of an electrification project. You've got to wonder though if at this point it's decline is irrevocable and terminal, or whether the benefits of the sparks effect would be able to revitalise the line if it was electrified.

I can't believe they allocate a 156 to this duty (granted that I know that the duty is a fill-in turn in the units' diagram). A 153 or a 142 would be much better suited to such a marginal service.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't believe they allocate a 156 to this duty (granted that I know that the duty is a fill-in turn in the units' diagram). A 153 or a 142 would be much better suited to such a marginal service.

For the afternoon services the 156 runs the 12:17 Manchester-Chester and is switched with a 150 at Chester for the return working. A Liverpool crew then arrive at Chester with a another 150 and switch it with the 156 (the second 150 is used to strengthen the 15:07 Chester-Manchester.)

The Lime St crew take the 156 to run the Helsby-Ellesmere Port services. The last service runs to Warrington BQ and then ECS to Lime Street. The 156 is then at Lime Street in time for being used on an evening peak Lime St-Oxford Rd service.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Nice chapter & verse about freight Rover.

As for "The Shell" as its known locally, I recall when all staff(thousands then) were given a free hot lunch,no matter where on the huge site, half of the" Port" never went hungry .

With all the underground pipe lines which I am not supposed to know about, there's not a great call for rail tankers, the last one used to supply Aberystwyth fuel farm, which is now supplied by road tanker.

Did not know Stanlow site was for sale.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Next door neighbour used to work at Kemira & retired a few years ago, so you may well be right its OOU now,he spoke of fertiliser rail tankers

Shell Stanlow has been sold to ESSAR, an Indian company and they have 'promised' investment at the site..
Quinn Glass, another large company next to the line were only recently given planning permission for their site at Ince and in that permission was a requirement for a lot of their freight to be rail based.
Whether it amounts to anything we'll have to see.
There is a new incinerator being built at Runcorn and the planning permission for that included a requirement for a rail based flow of waste to burn. Now I believe the company who have responsibility for the plant have requested that most of the waste to be burned comes by road.
It seems that companies are claiming they will use rail in order to get planning permission and then reneging on this once the ink is wet on the planning forms. Shame really that no-one is following up on this.

 

[tbtc]

The line is just an unfortunate victim of having been missed off the end of an electrification project. You've got to wonder though if at this point it's decline is irrevocable and terminal, or whether the benefits of the sparks effect would be able to revitalise the line if it was electrified

Another problem with it is that it sits in "no man's land" between three TOCs - ATW, Merseyrail and Northern. ATW could potentially run Manchester - Ellesmere Port services, Merseyrail may want shuttles from Helsby to connect to their EMUs at Ellesmere Port, but the service is in the hands of Northern who have little incentive to build the route up (and plenty other busier services which need the 156).

 

[sprinterguy]

Another problem with it is that it sits in "no man's land" between three TOCs - ATW, Merseyrail and Northern. ATW could potentially run Manchester - Ellesmere Port services, Merseyrail may want shuttles from Helsby to connect to their EMUs at Ellesmere Port, but the service is in the hands of Northern who have little incentive to build the route up (and plenty other busier services which need the 156).

Yes, it should sit with Merseyrail. Electrification and the introduction of a “Mersey Connect” north to south almost circular service from Central to Runcorn, Helsby, Hooton and Central as has been vetoed by others would be good, or at the very least, a more regular Warrington to Ellesmere Port/Hooton shuttle (Operated by one Pacer/153 all day without any electrification).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What would the current demand be for a Warrington to Ellesmere Port/Hooton shuttle? Would advertising this service in the local free papers help matters?

 

[tbtc]

What would the current demand be for a Warrington to Ellesmere Port/Hooton shuttle?

I don't know, but Ellesmere Port is close to the (very popular) shopping centre at Cheshire Oaks, a shame there's no rail access to it (or to Chester Zoo, or a few other "leisure" destinations around there)

 

[Spagnoletti]

With all the underground pipe lines which I am not supposed to know about,

http://www.linewatch.co.uk/map-PDF/map-GPSS.pdf

I don't think it's a secret anymore.

 

[merlodlliw]

Shell Stanlow has been sold to ESSAR, an Indian company and they have 'promised' investment at the site..
Quinn Glass, another large company next to the line were only recently given planning permission for their site at Ince and in that permission was a requirement for a lot of their freight to be rail based.
Whether it amounts to anything we'll have to see.
There is a new incinerator being built at Runcorn and the planning permission for that included a requirement for a rail based flow of waste to burn. Now I believe the company who have responsibility for the plant have requested that most of the waste to be burned comes by road.
It seems that companies are claiming they will use rail in order to get planning permission and then reneging on this once the ink is wet on the planning forms. Shame really that no-one is following up on this.

Interesting, Ta Ta build the cars,Essar power them etc, it really is up to the planning Authorities to sort them out, if they say by rail,it will be rail.
We have a mountain of a Coal Tip here in Wrexham from the old Bersham pit near the Wrexham By Pass, it will be moved over nine years by rail, this is the sole reason for permission being granted, no ifs or buts a new rail junction is to be built by the contractor off the Wrexham/Shrewsbury line, millions of tons are involved.Another reason to double the line to Saltney

Bob

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Interesting, Ta Ta build the cars,Essar power them etc, it really is up to the planning Authorities to sort them out, if they say by rail,it will be rail.
We have a mountain of a Coal Tip here in Wrexham from the old Bersham pit near the Wrexham By Pass, it will be moved over nine years by rail, this is the sole reason for permission being granted, no ifs or buts a new rail junction is to be built by the contractor off the Wrexham/Shrewsbury line, millions of tons are involved.Another reason to double the line to Saltney

Bob

I never knew about the coal tip. I drove past that spot last weekend on my way to Llangollen. I agree with you on the doubling.

 

[merlodlliw]

I never knew about the coal tip. I drove past that spot last weekend on my way to Llangollen. I agree with you on the doubling.

Yes its on its way out,some silly people wanted it listed as a monument to coal in the area, this was thrown out, when it became clear the tip was shifting due to subsidence. Good riddance in my opinion.

Thanks for the map, at last the underground pipe to Heathrow is no longer a secret.

Bob

 

[frodshamfella]

I think most people on here feel the line should be made more of, and incorporated into something more useful than the cr.p timetable on offer....however as the country seems to have no money, this useless service is probably all we will see for the forseeable future !

 

[Cheshire Rover]

I think most people on here feel the line should be made more of, and incorporated into something more useful than the cr.p timetable on offer....however as the country seems to have no money, this useless service is probably all we will see for the forseeable future !

If the price of petrol keeps rising then pressure will come to bear as trains as peak times keep on filling up. I remember a few years ago when I had to take a train in to Machester Picc in a morning for a while from Helsby. The thing was full before I even got on. I don't know if anything has improved.

 

[merlodlliw]

If the price of petrol keeps rising then pressure will come to bear as trains as peak times keep on filling up. I remember a few years ago when I had to take a train in to Machester Picc in a morning for a while from Helsby. The thing was full before I even got on. I don't know if anything has improved.

All the morning trains to Manchester are full from Chester, that's where the traffic goes.


Bob

 

[Cheshire Rover]

All the morning trains to Manchester are full from Chester, that's where the traffic goes.


Bob

SOme old news from todays Chester Chron..
http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/c...o-halton-local-transport-plan-59067-28557216/
I wonder if this would affect the Ellesmere Port to Helsby line if the Curve project went ahead?