Help

[Mariah2020]

Hi, I have received a letter through the post stating to an alleged contravention of railway regulations and an evidential report has been submitted. They have asked me to write back and it isn’t a penalty first.

I purchased a 3.38pm train ticket from Shipley to leeds for £2.60 and I was at the train station a little before and managed to get on the earlier train this ticket was priced at £2.40. Due to me paying more for the later train I believed my ticket would be valid.

Upon providing my ticket to the officer on the train he told me it wasn’t valid and I was trying to get away with buying a cheaper ticket I tried to explain the situation that my ticket was more expensive than the train I was on he then demanded me to give over my address and post code which I voiced my concerns on being a young female travelling alone I did eventually give this over after he flashed his officer badge in my face multiple times.

I even offered to purchase another ticket for £4.80 anytime travel on Trainline when he said my ticket wasn’t valid which he wasn’t having any of. I felt extremely belittled, embarrassed and vulnerable at the situation with everyone staring on the train.

I have now received this rather official letter threatening with prosecution and court time and up to £1000 fines. I’m unsure on what to reply as this was a genuine misunderstanding that my ticket would not be valid I travel along that route a lot and always purchase the correct tickets.

Can anyone offer any help?

 

[Jan Mayen]

I'm guessing the ticket you purchased was an Advance ticket, valid only for the train booked. If that is the case, it would not have been valid for the earlier train.
Was it an Advance ticket?

 

[Mariah2020]

Hi I believe so yes but I didn’t second guess as it was a more expensive ticket than the train I boarded

 

[Jan Mayen]

I'm sure someone who has more knowledge of Northern Advance tickets than me can clarify, but I think the price of the Advance ticket is irrelevant. It is only valid on the specified train. I've just looked on the Northern website, and this is what it says for the 2115 tonight:

OUT21:15 (Wed 26 Oct)​

---

Shipley (Yorks) to Leeds

17m, 0 changes

Advance Single£2.40​

• Specified train only. No refunds.
• Only valid on booked Northern services.

 

[Mariah2020]

I'm sure someone who has more knowledge of Northern Advance tickets than me can clarify, but I think the price of the Advance ticket is irrelevant. It is only valid on the specified train. I've just looked on the Northern website, and this is what it says for the 2115 tonight:

OUT21:15 (Wed 26 Oct)​

---

Shipley (Yorks) to Leeds

17m, 0 changes

Advance Single£2.40​

• Specified train only. No refunds.
• Only valid on booked Northern services.

Yes I appreciate this was only valid for that train and I acknowledged that once the conductor told me and I offered to purchase a £4.80 anytime travel ticket but he refused and told me I was being prosecuted for attempting to purchase cheaper tickets. I tried explaining again that it wasn’t the situation and I had actually purchased a more expensive ticket than the train I was on ( hence not trying to dodge paying more)

 

[Jan Mayen]

I'm afraid I feel I can be of little further help. Hopefully someone with more experience of assisting will be along soon.

 

[Mariah2020]

I'm afraid I feel I can be of little further help. Hopefully someone with more experience of assisting will be along soon.

Thank you for your help

 

[Fawkes Cat]

As you bought a ticket of the 'Advance' type, you didn't have a ticket which was valid for the train you were on. So you're in exactly the same position as someone who got on the train with no ticket at all.

What this means is that if the railway take you to court, they will win; you will have to pay a fine, court costs and their prosecution costs.

But there's a good chance that you won't have to go to court. If you write back to Northern explaining that you made a mistake, that you now realise that you can only use an Advance ticket on the train that you bought it for and that you will make sure that you are on the right train in future, Northern will probably let you settle the matter by paying the train fare due and the costs of their investigation - think around £100 or so.

This may seem like a lot, but if you go to court you will probably be paying something like £300 or £400, so it's likely to be cheaper to settle out of court.

This probably feels very unfair in that as you say you actually paid more than the fare for the train you actually use. And lots of people here will agree. But as things stand at the moment, the railway are right in law. The way to get the law changed is to talk to your MP - but there's no chance of changing the law in time to solve your own case.

 

[Mariah2020]

As you bought a ticket of the 'Advance' type, you didn't have a ticket which was valid for the train you were on. So you're in exactly the same position as someone who got on the train with no ticket at all.

What this means is that if the railway take you to court, they will win; you will have to pay a fine, court costs and their prosecution costs.

But there's a good chance that you won't have to go to court. If you write back to Northern explaining that you made a mistake, that you now realise that you can only use an Advance ticket on the train that you bought it for and that you will make sure that you are on the right train in future, Northern will probably let you settle the matter by paying the train fare due and the costs of their investigation - think around £100 or so.

This may seem like a lot, but if you go to court you will probably be paying something like £300 or £400, so it's likely to be cheaper to settle out of court.

This probably feels very unfair in that as you say you actually paid more than the fare for the train you actually use. And lots of people here will agree. But as things stand at the moment, the railway are right in law. The way to get the law changed is to talk to your MP - but there's no chance of changing the law in time to solve your own case.

Thank you for your advice I think it was naive on my part to believe my ticket would be ok but in a rush to not be stood in the rain for 25 mins I jumped on. I would never get on a more expensive train with a cheaper ticket so I should’ve double checked when I got on the train. I will make sure I explain I am understanding and sorry in my response to northern and to ensure I’m on the correct train in future. I just want to resolve as cheaply as possible with Christmas coming up.

 

[Sebastian O]

As you bought a ticket of the 'Advance' type, you didn't have a ticket which was valid for the train you were on. So you're in exactly the same position as someone who got on the train with no ticket at all.

What this means is that if the railway take you to court, they will win; you will have to pay a fine, court costs and their prosecution costs.

But there's a good chance that you won't have to go to court. If you write back to Northern explaining that you made a mistake, that you now realise that you can only use an Advance ticket on the train that you bought it for and that you will make sure that you are on the right train in future, Northern will probably let you settle the matter by paying the train fare due and the costs of their investigation - think around £100 or so.

This may seem like a lot, but if you go to court you will probably be paying something like £300 or £400, so it's likely to be cheaper to settle out of court.

This probably feels very unfair in that as you say you actually paid more than the fare for the train you actually use. And lots of people here will agree. But as things stand at the moment, the railway are right in law. The way to get the law changed is to talk to your MP - but there's no chance of changing the law in time to solve your own case.

This seems a little ridiculous - surely context needs to be given here that they had a fairly similar ticket, whilst clearly not having the right one - why was an excess not compulsory for this rather than going over the top and chasing for a fine?

It’s hardly ticket evasion, it was clearly a mistake when the difference is 20p (if I’ve understood correctly). No wonder people worry about travelling by railway when they get fined for a simple mistake.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This seems a little ridiculous - surely context needs to be given here that they had a fairly similar ticket, whilst clearly not having the right one - why was an excess not compulsory for this rather than going over the top and chasing for a fine?

Moot point. Essentially the OP has attempted to use a reduced price, train-specific £2.60 Advance ticket as if it was a flexible £4.80 Anytime Day Single ticket.

If you travel on the wrong train on an Advance ticket, should there not be any consequences, otherwise folk would just buy the cheapest tier of advance ticket and maybe pay an upgrade if challenged?

Not sure how this really helps the OP, though?

 

[Snow1964]

This seems a little ridiculous - surely context needs to be given here that they had a fairly similar ticket, whilst clearly not having the right one - why was an excess not compulsory for this rather than going over the top and chasing for a fine?

It’s hardly ticket evasion, it was clearly a mistake when the difference is 20p (if I’ve understood correctly). No wonder people worry about travelling by railway when they get fined for a simple mistake.

In a way the difference was minus 20p
The advance for train being used was cheaper than the ticket held

If the ticket inspector stated the opposite their competency is questionable.

Whilst I understand pursuing underpayment and fare evasion, and I agree with doing so. But it brings the railway into disrepute when an honest mistake has resulted in a more expensive ticket being used in error, and that leads to penalties being threatened. It’s not like railway was out of pocket, the mistake had meant a gain.

Was the earlier train you travelled on, on time or running late. It is much easier to write back if you can say you accidentally boarded a late running service in error (if that is the case). Advances only work properly when train is on time.

 

[Mariah2020]

Moot point. Essentially the OP has attempted to use a reduced price, train-specific £2.60 Advance ticket as if it was a flexible £4.80 Anytime ticket.

If you travel on the wrong train on an Advance ticket, should there not be any consequences, otherwise folk would just buy the cheapest tier of advance ticket and maybe pay an upgrade if challenged?

Not sure how this really helps the OP, though?!

Hi I didn’t buy the cheapest ticket I bought the £2.60 ticket and travelled on the £2.40 train. Once I realised my ticket wasn’t valid I offered to purchase another ticket ( £4.80 which you can travel at any time) and the conductor wouldn’t let me. Demanded for my address and details and told me I’d be getting prosecuted.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Others on here are better placed to provide general advice on how best to now take things forward. Forum expert @Hadders is usually one such person. @Fawkes Cat has also provided some good advice, upthread.

Essentially, travelling on an Advance ticket on a different train to the specific one on which you're booked, is usually considered to be that you don't then have a valid ticket for your journey. Offering to pay the Anytime fare on the train after its departed or upon arrival at Leeds is too late, that's "paying when challenged".

You may have to chalk this one up to experience. Hopefully, you'll be able to negotiate a so-called "out of court" settlement. It's not guaranteed, though.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi I didn’t buy the cheapest ticket I bought the £2.60 ticket and travelled on the £2.40 train. Once I realised my ticket wasn’t valid I offered to purchase another ticket ( £4.80 which you can travel at any time) and the conductor wouldn’t let me. Demanded for my address and details and told me I’d be getting prosecuted.

Yes, it's illogical - but all so called "Advance" fares (at whatever price) trade off flexibility for a totally inflexible ticket. In my view this is only worth doing if you save a decent amount of money for the trade off. I don't think they should even be offered on journeys as short of the one you are on. I'd never sacrifice the flexibility of the full fare for an Advance unless I was saving at least £5 to £10 on the ticket (and if it was a longer journey eg Leeds to London, I'd expect to save more than that for sacrificing my travel flexibility. On that route I expect a return ticket is not much more than the £4.80 single too, making the inflexible £2.60 fare even less value for money.

In a way that is advice for the future, But I guess you will appreciate this now.

However, your objective now has to be to secure an out of court settlement at the lowest cost you can get. V good chance that Northern will offer this if you engage with them and see other threads for the sort of reply you need to send. If you post a draft up people will be able to help with any suggestions that might help before you send your reply.

Good luck and plenty of help here if you need it.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an unfortunate situation, unfortunately you purchased an Advance ticket which is only valid on the specific train detailed in the itinerary. This meant you were unable to produce a valid ticket when asked to do so on the train, which is a criminal offence.

I suspect the letter you've been sent says that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asks for your version of events before deciding whether or not to do so. It is important that you reply to this letter before the leadline. I suggest that you include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

It's also probably worth mentioning that you believed you inadvertently believed you could catch an earlier train because the fares for that train were on sale at a cheaper price.

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Northern are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount is typically around £100 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of your draft reply in this thread I'm sure forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.