Help with potential prosecution on Elizibeth line

[extremecheese]

Hello all,
Last week (Monday) I started a new job near Slough, and on the Tuesday I had to get into central London.
I therefore parked in Slough, and brought a BR logo ticket from the machines out of the front to what I recall as the BR station that serves trains from the west and Wales direction - this station is Paddington terminus.
My intention was to get off at Paddington, and then get a zone 1 tube roaming ticket to Farringdon (where I needed to go).
After boarding the train, I noticed that the train was actually part of the Elizibeth line, and that it stops at Farringdon.
Naturally I decided to stay on the train, past Paddington, and then adjust my fare at Farringdon.
At Farrigndon, I alighted the train and walked up to a couple of guards standing at the bottom of the escalators next to the platform.
I told them that I'd only realized that the train could go straight through to Farrigndon whilst I was on it, and that I needed to buy a zone 1 roaming ticket for my journey home anyway'
Both guards were very nice, and told me that there would be no problem, they said to just go upstairs, explain it to the guys on the gates, and they would probably just let me go through. I explained to them that I'd still need to buy a ticket anyway (for the return), but they even said to 'not worry'
At the top of the escalators next to the barriers, there were at least half a dozen Govia henchmen, and I approached one of them and explained the situation, asking where I could adjust my ticket.
I was then circled by them, where they told me I was to receive a notice of prosecution for fare evasion.
Naturally I was dumbfounded by this, as at no point was my intention to evade fare, it was also the first time I'd travelled to work using the underground, I'd asked the first people I encountered regarding the procedure of fare adjustment (there apparently is none!), and like a lamb to the slaughter I'd even approached the Govia henchmen for advice!

Naturally, I've now been back in the UK long enough to know that the behavior of the govia henchmen is typical of the graceless, illogical, and dehumanized state of the nation, so I personally don't see much hope in appealing - can anyone advise me?

 

[John R]

There is no “appealing” as you have not received a penalty fare. You will, in due course receive a letter asking for your side of the story, but threatening prosecution.

You mention Govia, so sounds like you were stopped by a GTR employee. This is good news if so, as it almost always settles out of court (though it will cost you) whereas if it was a TfL case you would almost certainly be prosecuted. If you can post the slip you should have received, with anything that identifies you obscured, then we can confirm that.

When you get a letter, come back here for advice, but your attitude with any response will need to be a bit more contrite than your last paragraph. You committed a criminal offence by staying on the train beyond your stop, so there was nothing “natural” about what you did. Hopefully your discussion with the GTR person was rather more circumspect too.

For future reference, you can simply tap on and off in much of the south east, (including Slough to Farringdon) but in future you need to do more research before assuming anything, and ask at the ticket office at Slough if you are still uncertain.

 

[island]

I would observe that no offence appears to have been committed here under:

1. the National Rail Byelaws, as the passenger had a valid ticket upon entering the train, and presented their ticket when asked
2. the Regulation of Railways Act, as the passenger has by proactively approaching railway staff demonstrated a lack of intent to avoid payment of their fare

The only offence that can be said to have been committed is under section 103 of the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 (passenger failing to quit carriage upon arriving at the point to which his fare is paid) – the railway never seem to charge this though – or a tenuous possibility of section 17 of the TfL Byelaws for entering the CTA at Farringdon without a ticket.

The OP will need to wait to see what the letter from GTR says and come back for advice.

 

[extremecheese]

Yes I was very much more reserved when dealing with the Govia henchmen - I even asked them to turn their video recording on!
Like I say, I fully understand the graceless illogical and inhumane way the UK operates in these modern times, and acted accordingly (maybe with a little bit of incredulity) towards these people.
Where I'd disagree with you, is your rejection of my 'natural thinking'. I recently got on the wrong train from Temple Meads to Severn Tunnel Junction, instead I boarded a fast train that omitted that station. Whilst on the train I asked the conductor what to do, and offered to pay the extra to Newport. He told me to simply change at Newport and ride back to Severn Tunnel Junction. No mention of fare evasion there. Secondly, I've lived a huge chunk of my life abroad, and in all rail networks I've experienced, you can change your ticket mid journey.
So with all things considered, I acted rationally and naturally.
I'm currently rather angry as I paid another visit to London yesterday, but stayed at my niece's house which has a private parking area - yes you guessed it, I got a 60pound fine for illegal parking (apparently I needed some kind of 'scratch card permit' to park there!), so right now, I just see London as a money trap for those who earnestly want to make a living!

I will post the letter of prosecution if / when it arrives, and will post up my ticket a bit later (I need to work right now)
Thanks for your responses so far!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2025 ==

You mention Govia, so sounds like you were stopped by a GTR employee.

No, I approached them.

 

[AlterEgo]

I've lived a huge chunk of my life abroad, and in all rail networks I've experienced, you can change your ticket mid journey.

But you didn't change your ticket mid journey here. You travelled beyond its validity.

Regardless, the points @island makes will be helpful. It is not clear any offence was committed here, and you are best off waiting for a letter to arrive to see what, if any, allegations it makes.

 

[extremecheese]

But you didn't change your ticket mid journey here. You travelled beyond its validity.

Regardless, the points @island makes will be helpful. It is not clear any offence was committed here, and you are best off waiting for a letter to arrive to see what, if any, allegations it makes.

You are right, apologies for the wording - in all these cities, you could also adjust your ticket at the exit end by approaching the staff or the office - which I did, twice.
I shall therefore patiently wait!

 

[Watershed]

There are large parts of the world where it would be perfectly permitted to pay the difference at the end of your journey, so I can definitely understand why the OP might think it was permitted. Unfortunately, that's not the case for most of Britain - most trains operate under Penalty Fare schemes, where you must have a valid ticket at all times and overtravelling (with a view to paying the difference later) is not allowed.

I agree with @island though, that the only offence committed here was under section 103 RCCA so it is worthwhile seeing what GTR come back with, to determine whether it is worth challenging.

 

[John R]

It does sound as though you need to be a lot more careful in life, if within the space of a few days you have got on a wrong train, over travelled without a ticket on a separate occasion, and got a parking ticket. Welcome to Britain!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I therefore parked in Slough, and brought a BR logo ticket from the machines out of the front to what I recall as the BR station that serves trains from the west and Wales direction - this station is Paddington terminus.
My intention was to get off at Paddington, and then get a zone 1 tube roaming ticket to Farringdon (where I needed to go).

The ticket machine could also have sold you a ticket to Zone 1 or a One Day Travel Card.

That's not special for Slough or the Elizabeth Line, but applies to all stations in the London commuting area. Slough is also in the contactless area, but not everywhere is.

 

[AlterEgo]

The ticket machine could also have sold you a ticket to Zone 1 or a One Day Travel Card.

That's not special for Slough or the Elizabeth Line, but applies to all stations in the London commuting area. Slough is also in the contactless area, but not everywhere is.

Indeed, through ticketing is available everywhere.

You don't need to buy a separate ticket for separate trains. It is usually more expensive this way.

 

[extremecheese]

It does sound as though you need to be a lot more careful in life, if within the space of a few days you have got on a wrong train, over travelled without a ticket on a separate occasion, and got a parking ticket. Welcome to Britain!

Hahah!
Thanks John!
Yes I'm currently trying to blow off a bit of steam.

The UK has become quite a hell hole when compared to 30 years ago, there is an instant assumption of guilt or at least an instant search for guilt before any kind of reasonable assessment of a person's situation. I can only assume that you guys have been rather naughty in my absence, and the result of which has paved the way to such harsh protocols.
I don't really mean that, I'm sure you are all lovely!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2025 ==

Indeed, through ticketing is available everywhere.

You don't need to buy a separate ticket for separate trains. It is usually more expensive this way.

This adds to the frustration, at the time of approaching the Govia henchmen, I was going to buy extra tickets that would have concluded in me paying more for the fare than the full station to station amount!
I tried to explain this, but got the 'I'm just doing my job' response back.
As a subnote, I was so spooked by what happened that I refused to buy a ticket back to paddington at the end of the day. Instead I did the 1 and 3/4 hour trek accross London via foot from Farrigdon station to paddington - it was past 11pm by the time I got back to Cardiff, completely exhausted, and fully resolved to not use the underground again.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The UK has become quite a hell hole when compared to 30 years ago,

As you seem to have been away for a generation, I think you will need to treat the UK as a foreign country where you don't know the rules. Just like any foreign country, please make an effort to find out what locals do so that you don't inadvertently offend against local customs.

 

[Haywain]

please make an effort to find out what locals do

Given the amount of law breaking that can be routinely seen on the streets of much of the country, I think that making an effort to find out what the rules are would be better advice!

 

[John R]

Indeed, there are several requirements in respect of driving, not least notification of correct address for both licence and car, that can easily trip you up and land you with a large fine.

And living in Cardiff I presume you have enrolled in the mandatory Welsh language lessons and test that all new residents need to take (a joke, but I'd better not give the government any ideas...)

 

[extremecheese]

As you seem to have been away for a generation, I think you will need to treat the UK as a foreign country where you don't know the rules. Just like any foreign country, please make an effort to find out what locals do so that you don't inadvertently offend against local customs.

I take your point, but I've not yet encountered someone here in Cardiff, colleagues in London, and friends in Bristol that believe I've been treated fairly!
Basically other 'locals' share the same viewpoint, and would have done the same thing as I did. I'll usually play devils advocate and point out to them that technically I did not have a ticket for that portion of the journey, but they become more adamant than I am that I did the right thing.
So this seems to be a nationwide problem that is creeping in, and hence why I've asked for help from you guys as I've only experienced overwhelming encouragement from others around me.

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately having the moral high ground amongst friends is not going to help you when dealing with a company which is focused on achieving its own objectives and targets.

An anecdote, if I may. The other day, a family member got a parking fine for having one set of wheels on the pavement. They weren't blocking anyone because there was a lamp post immediately in front and a tree behind, and the pavement was wide enough for even two wheelchairs to pass each other. They were trying to do the right thing by obstructing the road as little as possible. But because it was in London, pavement parking is blanket banned and so they got a fine by unsympathetic parking wardens.

Now of course, by the letter of the law they were in the wrong. But the intent of the law is to prevent obstructions, and there was no obstruction caused by parking the way they did. Unfortunately, that doesn't count for anything under a strict liability system.

Coming back to your example, the fact that you weren't intentionally avoiding the fare due and offered to pay at your destination similarly counts for nothing. What matters is that you stayed on the train beyond the station to which you had paid. Essentially for convenience of enforcement, the law treats anyone who overtravels the same - whether they have a justification for it or not.

It's possible that GTR will effectively mess up adminstratively by alleging an offence under the wrong legislation. But if they identify the correct legislation (s.103 RCCA) then you have no real defence to a prosecution, and would thus be best off agreeing to an out of Court settlement.

It's frustrating - don't get me wrong - but the law stands, as unfair as it may seem. If you think the law needs changing, by all means lobby your MP.

 

[AlterEgo]

But if they identify the correct legislation (s.103 RCCA)

I do not think I have ever seen this prosecuted on the forum - I would be surprised!

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I would mention here is that the OP is perhaps quite lucky that they exited the station via the Thameslink (GTR) gateline and not the TfL (Elizabeth Line) one. GTR are normally open to making an out of court settlement (typically of £100-150 plus the fare unpaid at Anytime (Day) Single rate, which is unlikely to take into account the ticket held already so will probably total around £150-200). If this is paid the problem goes away provided you don't do it again. TfL by contrast pretty much always prosecute unless they go the Penalty Fares route, which to be fair they may have done in this case but not necessarily.

The usual advice for the OP is to post the redacted letter here when it arrives and we can best advise how to proceed in terms of obtaining a settlement rather than a prosecution. Though I do note that there are potential defences in the case of that being attempted as per post 3.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Coming back to your example, the fact that you weren't intentionally avoiding the fare due and offered to pay at your destination similarly counts for nothing. What matters is that you stayed on the train beyond the station to which you had paid. Essentially for convenience of enforcement, the law treats anyone who overtravels the same - whether they have a justification for it or not.

Would I be right to think that had the OP exited at Farringdon using a contactless card, that his liability would have been no more than the charge for an incomplete journey?

 

[blimmo]

And the moral of the story is that you should never try to regularise your situation with staff and instead just tap out and pretend you did nothing wrong...

I think the staff on the platform (by "guards" I presume the OP means security?) may have made the problem much worse: by approaching them OP was clearly proactively trying to fix their ticket but the RPIs at the gateline could (and clearly did) interpret someone approaching them as only doing so because they saw them and realised they wouldn't be able to get away with it.

 

[fandroid]

As for your parking ticket, your niece was rather remiss in not telling you about the parking rules there, and she should have had a batch of scratch card permits which she could have given to you. That's exactly how it works in both of my daughters' streets in London. Parking has to be rationed as much of the city was laid out in a period when almost no-one had a private vehicle. I have some sympathy for the Elizabeth Line problem as I recently had bought tickets from Basingstoke to Paddington via Reading. I had to remind myself not to stay on a train which just passed through, but to get out and use Oyster for travel east of Paddington

 

[6Gman]

And the moral of the story is that you should never try to regularise your situation with staff and instead just tap out and pretend you did nothing wrong...

I think the staff on the platform (by "guards" I presume the OP means security?) may have made the problem much worse: by approaching them OP was clearly proactively trying to fix their ticket but the RPIs at the gateline could (and clearly did) interpret someone approaching them as only doing so because they saw them and realised they wouldn't be able to get away with it.

An alternative moral of the story would be that if you are uncertain about the ticketing arrangements the booking office staff can offer advice that cannot be obtained from a machine.

 

[Haywain]

(by "guards" I presume the OP means security?)

Or just platform/station staff.

 

[extremecheese]

And the moral of the story is that you should never try to regularise your situation with staff and instead just tap out and pretend you did nothing wrong...

I think the staff on the platform (by "guards" I presume the OP means security?) may have made the problem much worse: by approaching them OP was clearly proactively trying to fix their ticket but the RPIs at the gateline could (and clearly did) interpret someone approaching them as only doing so because they saw them and realised they wouldn't be able to get away with it.

Yes, the staff at the gate were not there to help, they seemed to enjoy my naivety, and the most stupid moment was when someone had their phone stolen from their hands a few yards from me, - the gate henchmen didn't even blink and instead focused on dealing with the evil criminal that I obviously am!

 

[Haywain]

Yes, the staff at the gate were not there to help,

No, they are revenue protection staff and are there to catch fare dodgers.

the gate henchmen didn't even blink and instead focused on dealing with the evil criminal that I obviously am

They not police officers or security guards. They, rightly, concentrated on doing their job. And keeping on calling them "henchmen" won't change the fact that they caught you travelling without a valid ticket.

 

[extremecheese]

As for your parking ticket, your niece was rather remiss in not telling you about the parking rules there, and she should have had a batch of scratch card permits which she could have given to you. That's exactly how it works in both of my daughters' streets in London. Parking has to be rationed as much of the city was laid out in a period when almost no-one had a private vehicle. I have some sympathy for the Elizabeth Line problem as I recently had bought tickets from Basingstoke to Paddington via Reading. I had to remind myself not to stay on a train which just passed through, but to get out and use Oyster for travel east of Paddington

My Niece had no idea of these scratch cards, she has visitors every weekend (there is a large parking compound within her building and it never gets full - it's secluded and off the main road) and they have never received a ticket. She caught the guy sticking a ticket to my windshield, and told him that I was visiting her, but y'know, the usual 'im just doing my job' and 'I've already printed the ticket' babble fell out of his mouth.

 

[extremecheese]

No, they are revenue protection staff and are there to catch fare dodgers.

They not police officers or security guards. They, rightly, concentrated on doing their job. And keeping on calling them "henchmen" won't change the fact that they caught you travelling without a valid ticket.

No sir, I approached them, they did not 'catch' me.
With this in mind, I hope you understand why I call them henchmen because to me, their contribution to society is not a helpful one.

 

[WesternLancer]

With this in mind, I hope you understand why I call them henchmen because to me, their contribution to society is not a helpful one.

Perhaps not - but to someone (say me) who is paying money in my taxes to subsidize the building and running of the Elizabeth line (over 100 miles away from where I live), but have never used it, I might take the view that having staff around to ensure everyone who travel on it pays the fare they are supposed to pay is making a helpful contribution to society.

Whilst I'm personally sorry you were not able to pay the add on fare you willingly and honestly wanted to pay - your attitude about the mistake you made does not really help your cause.

It's unfortunate that deliberate ticket fare evasion in the UK is endemic (see large parts of this forum for lots of examples) it's unfortunate that other wise honest mistakes get picked up with all the deliberate evasion that goes on. Sadly it's a by product of that. Happens in other countries too - ie once happened to me in Germany where I got a spot fine for not having the correct railway ticket - I had no intention not to pay German Railways for my travel - I just didn't understand that what I had done was wrong before I got the penalty.

 

[Mattplans]

I use this station regularly so thought I could add some clarification (not that it changes the facts of the case)

The guards OP speaks of were most likely Elizabeth Line or London Underground staff at the Elizabeth Line platforms or around the escalators. Eliz line staff usually man the platforms during peak hours making announcements like "The next train is for Abbey Wood" or encouraging people to use all the doors on the platform.

One thing I would mention here is that the OP is perhaps quite lucky that they exited the station via the Thameslink (GTR) gateline and not the TfL (Elizabeth Line) one

GTR doesn't have a gateline at Farringdon and all gatelines are staffed by London Underground. Even the lesser known Barbican exit accessible only via the Elizabeth line platforms has LU staffing it. OP got a bit unlucky on this day as GTR were doing a revenue protection operation. This station is just a bit unique - and the primary (bigger) entrance/exit is staffed by LU even though it leads to the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink platforms (as opposed to the Underground platforms which can be accessed from the entrance across the street) - this is where i imagine the OP was caught.

This means at this specific gateline LU are constantly waving passengers through because they have tickets that the gates can't read. It seems some passengers get away with just flashing their phones at the gateline staff and they get let through. The flow of users at this station with qr codes as tickets or other tickets the barrier can't accept is so large that the LU staff sometimes leave a gate open so they don't have to keep opening the gate for customers after they've flashed their ticket at them.

GTR do like to raid Farringdon every few months during the AM peak probably looking for short farers, London Terminals ticket holders and those that usually get waved through by LU who have less knowledge on the national rail tickets. Although, I have read elsewhere on the forum that staff at this station tend to be more knowledgeable of NR tickets... given 2 seperate NR operators call there.

I wonder if GTR routinely issue penalty fares and MG11s for journeys that took place on the Elizabeth Line but it's not beyond their remit to do so.

I take your point, but I've not yet encountered someone here in Cardiff, colleagues in London, and friends in Bristol that believe I've been treated fairly!

I wouldn't say you were treated unfairly either, but you were definitely a bit unlucky. I use the station regularly during the week and the GTR revenue protection staff are rarely about. When they do come, they tend to focus their efforts on revenue blocks checking everyone who is leaving the Thameslink platforms and not at the barriers, but it does happen. And when I have seen them at the barriers, they seem to be inundated with the amount of qr code passengers that I'm surprised there were any idle enough for you to ask them for help. If they weren't there, you wouldn't have been issued anything and would have probably been waved through even with the invalid ticket. But that's in the past, and at least you know what to do now so you don't make the same mistake. Do post the letter when it arrives!

 

[johnny_t]

Happens in other countries too - ie once happened to me in Germany where I got a spot fine for not having the correct railway ticket - I had no intention not to pay German Railways for my travel - I just didn't understand that what I had done was wrong before I got the penalty.

Same here. On my honeymoon, 28 years ago, we'd taken a day trip from Frankfurt to Heidelberg. Because the train back was an ICE, Germany's not particularly high speed train, we had to pay a fairly hefty penalty even though, as far as I was concerned, I was just using my return ticket to get back on a train.