Help with Penalty Fare please

[ERRa]

Hi, I travelled from Stowmarket station on Friday morning - when I went to pay for my ticket the machine was faulty and not accepting cards. There were queues for the machine on the other platform which would have involved crossing a step bridge and for the ticket office, also on the other side and I would have missed the train. I don't consider myself to have had inefficient time to buy a ticket because I was expecting the machine on my platform to be working.

I boarded the train, and no ticket conductor came through, they came over the tannoy and said that they had not been able to pass through the train and anyone from Elmswell (the preceding station) could pay at the barriers because the machine had been faulty.

When I went to pay at the barrier, I was pulled aside when I said I'd travelled from Stowmarket and given a penalty notice from someone whose job it is "to catch fare dodgers like you" - he hadn't exactly caught me, I'd been queuing to buy a ticket that would have cost me £3.50. He said that there had been no report of the machines being faulty at Stowmarket. Since I had needed to queue and then had him berating me, I was running late for an important meeting and was so stunned that I paid the fare upfront, because I didn't have time to give him my details, and I had no idea what else they would use my details for.

I can appeal this, but now they have my money - what's the chance of them giving it back? I think that they will argue that I should have left more time to get my ticket from the other platform but I would have had to have arrived at least 20 minutes earlier.

Any advice please?

 

[najaB]

I can appeal this, but now they have my money - what's the chance of them giving it back? I think that they will argue that I should have left more time to get my ticket from the other platform but I would have had to have arrived at least 20 minutes earlier.

Any advice please?

I'd say you've a realistic chance of getting your money back. Make sure you are clear in your appeal that the machine wasn't broken, just that it didn't accept your card.



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[cjmillsnun]

I'd say you've a realistic chance of getting your money back. Make sure you are clear in your appeal that the machine wasn't broken, just that it didn't accept your card.



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I'm not so sure. There were other machines and a ticket office. 20 minutes is a subjective time, we don't know for sure how long the OP would've had to queue for.

That said, I would instead of going down the appeal route, put in a customer service complaint. This is more likely to get a result.

 

[najaB]

I'm not so sure. There were other machines and a ticket office. 20 minutes is a subjective time, we don't know for sure how long the OP would've had to queue for.

I didn't say it was a slam dunk, just that the chances are better than some other cases which are posted here.

That said, I would instead of going down the appeal route, put in a customer service complaint. This is more likely to get a result.

There's nothing wrong with pursuing both avenues.

 

[furlong]

Any advice please?

Assuming this was a 'Penalty Fare' you should read the Penalty Fares Rules and Policy documents (available online) and the document for the specific scheme concerned and then formulate an appeal if you believe you have valid grounds for one. From the Feb 2012 version:

5.2 The ticket facilities at each penalty fares station are sufficient to meet the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement and Passenger's Charter queuing standards under normal circumstances at all times of day.

This standard is normally five minutes at peak times and three minutes at other times. When queuing standards are not met, Ticket Offices will inform the Communications Centre who will advise authorised collectors by pager to make sure that passengers are not charged a penalty fare.

 

[Master29]

I'd say you've a realistic chance of getting your money back. Make sure you are clear in your appeal that the machine wasn't broken, just that it didn't accept your card.



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Actually the OP does state the machine was faulty as it was announced over the tannoy by the train manager. Might not make a difference bearing in mind there were other means to pay, but still worth a go as you say.

 

[ian959]

Actually the OP does state the machine was faulty as it was announced over the tannoy by the train manager. Might not make a difference bearing in mind there were other means to pay, but still worth a go as you say.

The announcement was in relation to a different station to the one the OP boarded at so really does not help.

 

[furlong]

The announcement was in relation to a different station to the one the OP boarded at so really does not help.

Depends on the nature of the fault and whether or not it was a more widespread problem.

 

[Master29]

The announcement was in relation to a different station to the one the OP boarded at so really does not help.

Yes it was. I stand corrected.

 

[Clip]

Depends on the nature of the fault and whether or not it was a more widespread problem.

Well if there was a widespreasd problem then the machine on the other platform would also be out of use would it not seeing as theyre fed the same?

 

[island]

As you chose to board a train at a station that had functional ticketing facilities, you committed a criminal offence. The fact that one of the several ticket sales points was apparently partially defective and that there were queues for others does not constitute a defence to this.

If you have paid a Penalty Fare in full then that is the end of the matter as far as Abellio Greater Anglia is concerned; you can appeal within 21 days of the offence but as you did indeed commit the offence it is unlikely an appeal would succeed. On the other hand, if your appeal is rejected you're only down the cost of a stamp, so you may decide to try it.

 

[cuccir]

As you chose to board a train at a station that had functional ticketing facilities, you committed a criminal offence. The fact that one of the several ticket sales points was apparently partially defective and that there were queues for others does not constitute a defence to this.

{{citationneeded}}

While it's correct to say that the laws are written in this way, their interpretation is much more nuanced. To put it another way - TOCs are not in the habit of issuing penalty fares or prosecuting people when there are unusually long queues at stations. We'd have to search prosecution attempts in circumstances similar to this one to be quite so definitive about it; it's likely, as we know, that many TOCs would either drop or settle out of court in such a circumstance rather than risk losing such a case.

Abelio Greater Anglia's application to start a Penalty Fare scheme is clear that if queue times exceed 5 minutes in the peak and 3 minutes in the off-peak, then penalty fares should not be charged (p4), as furlong noted. What we don't know is, in this instance, how long queues actually were (or, furthermore, whether Abelio will believe ERRa if they chose to appeal on this basis!)

 

[najaB]

As you chose to board a train at a station that had functional ticketing facilities, you committed a criminal offence. The fact that one of the several ticket sales points was apparently partially defective and that there were queues for others does not constitute a defence to this.

If this was about an intended prosecution I would agree with this assessment. However the TOC has decided not to proceed with a prosecution and issued a PF instead. So the fact that a byelaw offence has occurred is true, but also irrelevant.

If you have paid a Penalty Fare in full then that is the end of the matter as far as Abellio Greater Anglia is concerned; you can appeal within 21 days of the offence but as you did indeed commit the offence it is unlikely an appeal would succeed. On the other hand, if your appeal is rejected you're only down the cost of a stamp, so you may decide to try it.

This is also true, apart from the bolded phrase - if the queues were excessive, and given that the OP queued and then the TVM was unable to accept his payment there is a better-than-zero chance that a sympathetic appeal review may result in a refund of the PF. As you say, there is little to lose by trying.

 

[Clip]

{{citationneeded}}


Abelio Greater Anglia's application to start a Penalty Fare scheme is clear that if queue times exceed 5 minutes in the peak and 3 minutes in the off-peak, then penalty fares should not be charged (p4), as furlong noted. What we don't know is, in this instance, how long queues actually were (or, furthermore, whether Abelio will believe ERRa if they chose to appeal on this basis!)

Its actually not so clear as the passage states 'Normally' now what constitutes normally just opens up a whole raft of other discussion

 

[island]

{{citationneeded}}

Section 18, the Railway Byelaws. There's your citation.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Section 18, the Railway Byelaws. There's your citation.

Indeed, and they are a slam dunk. Nothing about queue times in the byelaws. That said, if it has been dealt with by a PF, then there will be no prosecution.

I still think the best route is a customer service complaint. It'll likely result in RTVs.