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Help with HMCTS baliffs

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Puffing Devil

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So in practical terms:

- turn up to court
- ask if you can have things adjourned so that you have time to negotiate a settlement with GTR. I guess (but don't know) that you should try asking a court official before you go into court - and if they can't help you may have to ask the magistrates when you are in court
- if they won't allow you time to negotiate, you need a plan B. On my understanding of the facts, that will have to be to plead guilty. You will then need to show what your income is, as the fine will be based on that.

I probably should add that I have no personal experience of this process, so I am happy for someone more knowledgeable to put this right.

I thought I covered all of that in my post?

If the OP can't make a deal with the GTR prosecutor before the case is called on, they will have to make a case for an adjournment with the magistrates.

The court officials you will work with are the ushers. They will normally be wearing a black robe and will check the OP into the court when they arrive. On the day, they will also give you an MC100 form to fill in. Take a pen.

Should you need to plead guilty on the day and are fined you can ask for time to pay.
 
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pedr

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The court process has become confused because you requested a hearing to make an application for the magistrates to re-open the case in the interests of justice. They have scheduled a hearing for that application. Theoretically, if you served a statutory declaration on them within an appropriate timescale that should, I think, take precedence, but it may be that their systems and processes couldn’t cope with that. This leaves the nature of the hearing somewhat opaque, but they will want a plea as soon as possible so they know whether to schedule a trial or not.

It is always open to a criminal defendant to plead not guilty and to require the prosecution to present its evidence. There is a larger sentence discount if a guilty plea is entered at the first opportunity but there should still be some discount if a defendant changes their plea at a later point, such as before the start of the trial. If you plead guilty then the train company can do nothing, and the court process will continue. Pleading not guilty should, I think, mean they’ll then be notified of a subsequent date for a trial. I don’t think you’ve seen a copy of any witness statement or more detail than the charge information sent by email, and its logical not to plead guilty to something where the exact details haven’t been made clear.

You may want to be prepared to discuss the procedure with the court and its legal advisor - I think your position is that you made and served a statutory declaration but it’s possible the court won’t be aware of that depending on how their systems are set up. Taking proof of that, and proof of service, could be helpful.
 

PhonyKangaroo

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Thank for everyone’s help. I’m quite upset because it seems like I’m going to end up with a criminal record now. The last message sent me to from GVR is on post #52 but I’m honestly not sure what to I can say back to them because it seems like you can’t really have communication with me as they haven't been made aware of anything. If anyone has any advice on what I could say back to them to help keep the communication open that would be great.
 

Puffing Devil

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Thank for everyone’s help. I’m quite upset because it seems like I’m going to end up with a criminal record now. The last message sent me to from GVR is on post #52 but I’m honestly not sure what to I can say back to them because it seems like you can’t really have communication with me as they haven't been made aware of anything. If anyone has any advice on what I could say back to them to help keep the communication open that would be great.

Sorry - I missed the response by GTR. It looks like they will not be at court. I would suggest the following:

  • Turn up on the 28th (you have to do this!)
  • Ask the usher if the GTR prosecutor is in court
  • If they are - ask to meet them and see if they will agree a settlement. If they do, they will arrange for the matter to be dropped. You could both go to court to confirm.
  • If not, tell the magistrates that you wish to enter no plea and have an adjournment to continue the conversation with GTR. Take in and show them the email.
  • If the magistrates will not adjourn, enter a plea of not guilty. They will then set a trial date. This will give you time to negotiate with GTR, though you will lose a small discount on the fine if you can't reach a settlement and then have to plead guilty.
Meanwhile, with GTR, let them know that the court has accepted the SD and that you are expected to enter a plea on the 28th and would like to reach an agreement with them before the court date. Apologies again for the original paperwork being lost due to your housing situation.
 

enyoueffsea

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How much difference is the out of court settlement likely to be compared to the court fine? I’d suggest based on the OP having limited/no income it is likely to be cheaper to take the court fine.

I’m not sure pleading not guilty will have any benefit for the OP other than the conviction.

If the desire of the OP is to avoid a prosecution, fair enough, but I thought it was more of a concern about the amount of the potential fine/settlement.


Edit - can be disregarded having seen the post from the OP concerned about a criminal record.
 

WesternLancer

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Sorry - I missed the response by GTR. It looks like they will not be at court. I would suggest the following:

  • Turn up on the 28th (you have to do this!)
  • Ask the usher if the GTR prosecutor is in court
  • If they are - ask to meet them and see if they will agree a settlement. If they do, they will arrange for the matter to be dropped. You could both go to court to confirm.
  • If not, tell the magistrates that you wish to enter no plea and have an adjournment to continue the conversation with GTR. Take in and show them the email.
  • If the magistrates will not adjourn, enter a plea of not guilty. They will then set a trial date. This will give you time to negotiate with GTR, though you will lose a small discount on the fine if you can't reach a settlement and then have to plead guilty.
Meanwhile, with GTR, let them know that the court has accepted the SD and that you are expected to enter a plea on the 28th and would like to reach an agreement with them before the court date. Apologies again for the original paperwork being lost due to your housing situation.
This seems like some clear steps the op can prepare for and take.

@PhonyKangaroo i don’t think all is lost yet
 

PhonyKangaroo

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How much difference is the out of court settlement likely to be compared to the court fine? I’d suggest based on the OP having limited/no income it is likely to be cheaper to take the court fine.

You are right in saying I would like to avoid a criminal record but I would still appreciate if anyone could answer your question anyway, I believe the original court fine was around £400. If anyone could tell me roughly how much a settlement would be that would be very helpful. I do have a low income but should be able to borrow some money of family members if needed because I would like to do anything possible to avoid the conviction.

If the out of court settlement that is offered is too much to me, will I then just go through the court process as usual? I feel like I may need to seek some legal/career advice, on how badly this conviction could affect me - so I can then weight up the vs the cost of the out of court settlement. Because there is a small chance that this conviction might not affect my career choice as much as I’m anticipating.

I have received an email now from GVR that confirms that will speak to me about an out of court settlement at court, which is good. I will attach below.
 

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WesternLancer

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You are right in saying I would like to avoid a criminal record but I would still appreciate if anyone could answer your question anyway, I believe the original court fine was around £400. If anyone could tell me roughly how much a settlement would be that would be very helpful. I do have a low income but should be able to borrow some money of family members if needed because I would like to do anything possible to avoid the conviction.

If the out of court settlement that is offered is too much to me, will I then just go through the court process as usual? I feel like I may need to seek some legal/career advice, on how badly this conviction could affect me - so I can then weight up the vs the cost of the out of court settlement. Because there is a small chance that this conviction might not affect my career choice as much as I’m anticipating.

I have received an email now from GVR that confirms that will speak to me about an out of court settlement at court, which is good. I will attach below.
Hi

various things you are asking here

- what the out of court settlement offer might be? Typically cost of the fare at the full Anytime price plus an admin fee from GTR for their costs in dealing with all this. If you know the journey then the fare can be easily found - if it was Potters Bar - Hadley Wood that Anytime Single Fare is £4.40
Is that the correct journey?

- The 'admin' fee - GTR are at the lower end of what we see for these - maybe c£100 (but given all the admin in this case including taking it to court originally that could be higher - but not unreasonably so

So your total would I think be likely to be a lot less than the original £400 court fine (but that did not get an income form submitted with it as you did not know about it obviously)

If you opt no to take up any out of court settlement (eg because you can't afford to pay it) - they yes, they will revert to the same court action as before I suspect - I suppose they could just drop the case but we don't see that tending to happen.

- career implications of being convicted - try lookin at the charity Unlock's website for some info - hard to imagine that relatively minor ticket infringement is going to totally destroy your career prospects and the course that you have a place on (IIRC your plans) - https://unlock.org.uk/

- recent message from GTR
That looks very helpful - I would think it would be very good idea to take printed out copy of that to the court with you on the day to show to anyone pertinent (eg the GTR prosecutors who might not have read your file / court staff / magistrates if you are in the court room with your case being dealt with etc)
 

guilbert

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I feel like I may need to seek some legal/career advice, on how badly this conviction could affect me - so I can then weight up the vs the cost of the out of court settlement. Because there is a small chance that this conviction might not affect my career choice as much as I’m anticipating.

Have a look at https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/...llegations/criminal-convictions-and-cautions/ - clearly nobody wants a conviction and it's not exactly something you want to flag on your CV it seems highly unlikely to me that a single instance of not paying the correct train fair before you were a student is going to be considered relevant to your fitness to practise. You will need to answer any questions about it honestly though.
 

PhonyKangaroo

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Final update for me, I just want to say a massive thank you to all that have helped me with this especially @WesternLancer without you all I would of been completely lost.

Had my day in court today, GTR prosecutors are lovely and very helpful. We agreed on an out of court settlement which was £207.50 (£100 original fine, £7.50 original fare and then an extra £100 for their costs) which I think is fair and reasonable. I’m so glad I was able to avoid the conviction, I can’t thank you all enough. This was a very stressful experience and with your knowledge it really made it very simple, thank you.
 
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30907

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Final update for me, I just want to say a massive thank you to all that have helped me with this especially @WesternLancer without you all I would of been completely lost.

Had my day in court today, GTR prosecutors are lovely and very helpful. We agreed on an out of court settlement which was £207.50 (£100 original fine, £7.50 original fare and then an extra £100 for their costs) which I think is fair and reasonable. I’m so glad I was able to avoid the conviction, I can’t thank you all enough. This was a very stressful experience and with your knowledge it really made it very simple, thank you.
That is excellent news, thanks for the update.
 

Puffing Devil

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Final update for me, I just want to say a massive thank you to all that have helped me with this especially @WesternLancer without you all I would of been completely lost.

Had my day in court today, GTR prosecutors are lovely and very helpful. We agreed on an out of court settlement which was £207.50 (£100 original fine, £7.50 original fare and then an extra £100 for their costs) which I think is fair and reasonable. I’m so glad I was able to avoid the conviction, I can’t thank you all enough. This was a very stressful experience and with your knowledge it really made it very simple, thank you.

That's a good outcome and goes to show the value of the insider knowledge on the forum.
 

Hadders

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Thanks for the update, I’m very pleased you were able to come to a good outcome.

Also well done to the forum members who gave assistance in this thread. An example of the forum at its best.
 

WesternLancer

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Final update for me, I just want to say a massive thank you to all that have helped me with this especially @WesternLancer without you all I would of been completely lost.

Had my day in court today, GTR prosecutors are lovely and very helpful. We agreed on an out of court settlement which was £207.50 (£100 original fine, £7.50 original fare and then an extra £100 for their costs) which I think is fair and reasonable. I’m so glad I was able to avoid the conviction, I can’t thank you all enough. This was a very stressful experience and with your knowledge it really made it very simple, thank you.
Sorry you had to pay so much given I suspect you need every penny for your coming course. But v pleased this is finally sorted out.

Maybe the most expensive rave night out you’ve been on…

Thanks for your kind comments and very best wishes for the future.

Credit also for the court experts on here who pitched in when things were complicated and confusing. Those insights seemed very helpful in my view.
 

PhonyKangaroo

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Really sorry to reactive this thread but I received an email today and I’m so confused. From my undertanding it was done ?
 

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tixy

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Contact GTR and say that you have settled, but the case is still listed.
Tell them the date you are due to appear and see if they want to withdraw the case.

It might however be beneficial to turn up and speak to the prosecutor at court, telling them that you have already been dealt with.
 

Puffing Devil

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Contact GTR and say that you have settled, but the case is still listed.
Tell them the date you are due to appear and see if they want to withdraw the case.

It might however be beneficial to turn up and speak to the prosecutor at court, telling them that you have already been dealt with.
Ask GTR to withdraw, nicely, dont see if they want to.

Contact the court before the hearing and they will tell you if it's still listed. Only if it's still running do you need to go to the court.

Don't trust GTR when they say they have withdrawn - confirm with the court.
 

Hadders

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This looks like a bit of an administrative mix-up!

I agree with what @Puffing Devil has said. Whatever you're told it might be wise to attend court the day just to be 100% certain that the case doesn't go ahead. Take any proof you have that the case was settled.

Often the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing in these sort of cases. The last thing you want is the case to inadvertently go ahead in your absence and end up at square one again!
 

pedr

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What exactly happened on 28th May? Did you go into an open court and hear your case brought, with the prosecutor offering no evidence and the magistrates finding you not guilty?
 

WesternLancer

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Really sorry to reactive this thread but I received an email today and I’m so confused. From my undertanding it was done ?
V sorry to hear this. Your case seems to be an endless saga of difficulties and stress for you. For was it c £4 fare on a night out….

But I see others have given some helpful follow up suggestions. Hope that works.
 

PhonyKangaroo

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What exactly happened on 28th May? Did you go into an open court and hear your case brought, with the prosecutor offering no evidence and the magistrates finding you not guilty?
It was a hearing to decide whether or not to open the case, it was decided that the case could be reopened. I didn’t enter any plea. Prosecutor agreed on out of court settlement, which was paid before I left the court.

Thank you for everyone’s advice. I’ve sent an email to GVR asking for them to withdraw. Watiting for a response. So annoying, thought it would have all been dealt with.
 
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