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A few weeks ago I was trying to travel from Bradford to Manchester Victoria (Northern) and multiple trains were cancelled. We were told to go to Leeds and get to Manchester Victoria from there and we were allowed to get TPE trains- this was also written on their website (attached and on line 5).
While on a TPE train I was fined for an invalid ticket as it was initially only for Northern trains. However it was officially written for this scenario I could get a TPE train to my destination. I also checked with customer service after the event and they said theres something specific in place for this situation.
I have already appealed this fare once, and was rejected. Does anyone have any advice on this? I’ve posted a screenshot of the appeal rejection and of the Northern website. I don’t know if I need to be way more explicit about this or if I should just pay it.
I thought I was- I’m reappealing and trying to make it even more explicit as this was an official announcement. I included that screenshot in my appeal too
They may have made a basic error, misinforming you about the burden of proof.
The Penalty Fare Regulations say:
"16 ... (4) Where the appellant makes representations as part of an appeal under this regulation in relation to any of the matters specified in paragraph (5), it is for the operator on whose behalf the penalty fare was charged to provide evidence that reasonably demonstrates that any fact described by the appellant in relation to any of those matters is not true.
(5) The matters referred to in paragraph (4) are—
(a)in circumstances where the appellant was charged a penalty fare in relation to travelling by, being present on, or leaving a train—
...(iii) whether any of the circumstances mentioned in regulations 6(2) applied"
6(2)(c) and (d) are about being given permission:
"a notice was displayed indicating that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket; or..."
"the operator of the train or the station, or a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of the operator, indicated that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket."
That concerns not having a ticket rather than having the wrong ticket, but it's worth putting the point to them (politely) because they may consider it covers your situation.
These Regulations amend the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 (S.I. 2018/366) which make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory...
www.legislation.gov.uk
but the amendments don't seem to affect those parts.
We've seen that "staff are trained not to give permission" excuse before in response to Penalty Fare appeals. It looks like a standard script. The appeal might have to get to the 3rd stage before someone engages a brain cell in the response
Sorry about that, here is what I sent them in the first appeal (alongside the screenshot from the website and my ticket, railcard etc.)
"
My initial train at 14:05 from Bradford Interchange to Manchester Victoria was cancelled by Northern due to a safety inspection between Hebden Bridge and Manchester Victoria between , and all of the passengers, including myself, were told to go to Leeds and get any service to Manchester Victoria.
I explicitly asked beforehand if we could use TransPennine Express (as my ticket was a single northern train ticket), which we were told yes. I asked an additional member of train staff at Leeds if this was ok and they said yes. Additionally, Northern have posted an announcement on their website explicitly saying this in writing (which I will attach). It is also on their website.
When I got onto the 15:30 towards Liverpool Lime St, I informed the ticket inspector of my situation however I was issued a fine. I offered to pay a normal faire and was declined. More than 5 other people on my carriage in the same situation at least were also fined. I arrived at Manchester Victoria at 16:42 with the fine.
I am more than happy to provide further information and get this issue resoveld."
In retrospect I should have been slightly more explicit but it's like they didn't even read my entire appeal! I sent another one that says this which is hopefully more clear to them. Here's what I wrote in the second one (wish I held fire for like 20 mins but oh well)
"While attempting to travel from Bradford Interchange (14:05) to Manchester Victoria , due to a series of cancellations (all trains via this route being cancelled until around 18:00), passengers were advised to go to Leeds and get a train to the destination station. This included TransPennine Express trains due to the circumstances, which was documented officially on on the Northern website (see attached screenshot on the 5th line) and is part of a special deal between TPE and Northern which is valid until the 28th July. This is not a case of being told incorrectly by an untrained member of staff in person, and is a case of following official advice put in writing on the companies website as a rare exception.
I arrived at Leeds and then followed this advice by getting the 15:30 service towards Liverpool Lime St, being fined in Huddersfield and arriving at Manchester Victoria at 16:42. Under other circumstances, I would have gotten on a Northern train as written on my ticket, however due to this exception that was written officially, I instead got this train. Alternatively I would have bought a TPE train ticket if not given this official advice, and even offered to do so to the ticket inspector and was declined that option. "
There are three stages to the appeal process, and you've used one or two of them up. If you have just made your second appeal, then hopefully that will work. But if you're about to make a further appeal, I think you need to do a number of things
- spell out every point where their previous conclusion is wrong (e.g. if they say you sent no evidence but you did, point out their mistake and send the evidence again)
- spell out every point where they have misunderstood the rules (e.g. that ticket acceptance is in place, that the onus is on the railway to show that your evidence is wrong)
- restate the argument that you are putting forward
And if you have any new arguments to add, don't forget to include those as well!
(Edited to add an extra thing that is probably needed)
It should be noted that even though your appeal was declined, the law says that you cannot now be prosecuted in relation to the incident. The train company can only pursue the penalty fare via the civil courts or debt collectors.
Nowhere in the OP's messages on this forum is Metrolink referred to, yet the appeal rejection letter mentions Metrolink as the reason for refusal.
What is missing here? Information from the OP... or competence from TP Express?
Edit: Perhaps the OP should have scrolled up in the "alternative travel advice" screenshot to show what the disruption was. As shown, it does mention Metrolink, which while not relevant to the OP's situation, could have confused the goons at TP Express or whoever they outsource this stuff to.
I honestly have no idea where its come from, I’m assuming its to do with this (tagged in og post but I’pl reattach here) but I don’t actually understand their argument
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I honestly have no idea where its come from, I’m assuming its to do with this (tagged in og post but I’pl reattach here) but I don’t actually understand their argument
Essentially the entire trainline between Bradford and Manchester Victoria is out (northern line trains)… But my point was I was allowed to get TPE trains as shown in the screenshot which they don’t seem to have addressed at all
I honestly have no idea where its come from, I’m assuming its to do with this (tagged in og post but I’pl reattach here) but I don’t actually understand their argument
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Essentially the entire trainline between Bradford and Manchester Victoria is out (northern line trains)… But my point was I was allowed to get TPE trains as shown in the screenshot which they don’t seem to have addressed at all
There are three stages to the appeal process, and you've used one or two of them up. If you have just made your second appeal, then hopefully that will work. But if you're about to make a further appeal, I think you need to do a number of things
- spell out every point where their previous conclusion is wrong (e.g. if they say you sent no evidence but you did, point out their mistake and send the evidence again)
- spell out every point where they have misunderstood the rules (e.g. that ticket acceptance is in place, that the onus is on the railway to show that your evidence is wrong)
- restate the argument that you are putting forward
And if you have any new arguments to add, don't forget to include those as well!
(Edited to add an extra thing that is probably needed)
This advice still stands. Unfortunately your screenshot did apparently show the Metrolink closure as a headline, with no specific mention of the closure that affected you. The later-mentioned alternative arrangements for travelling between Manchester and Leeds should have flagged a bigger problem to Penalty Fare Services Ltd, but as they're based in Suffolk, their geographical knowledge might be limited!
That's no excuse. As already mentioned, it's the TOC's responsibility to demonstrate why your reasoning is wrong, and they should be compelled to look at Northern's website records to verify the full message that applied on the day.
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That screen grab still doesn't show the cause of the disruption. It's essential to clarify that as they've run down that Metrolink rabbit hole and it might be difficult to get them out of it without evidence that they cannot ignore
Unfortunately the screenshot provided by @janb may be of no assistance, as its wording differs from the shot posted by the OP, so may relate to a different incident.
OP screenshot: “Manchester Picadillly to Chester services are running as normal” @janb screenshot:"Customers can travel to Chester using services from Manchester Picadilly"
Unreal.. it's there, in black and white, missed both by the RPOs and by their contract Penalty handling firm.
I do wonder how Raspberry Software aka Penalty Services Ltd are able to retain their contract now FirstGroup are out. Did this relate to an incident before TPE was OLR'd?
If not, I wonder if it would be worth putting this one to their MD Chris Jackson to add this to their list of things to do. The way Revenue Protection staff apply sensible discretion (or not) should also be looked at, if we recall a previous incident where all night trains were cancelled and a passenger was TIR'd by the RPO for using one the following day despite being allowed to board by the guard.
Unfortunately the screenshot provided by @janb may be of no assistance, as its wording differs from the shot posted by the OP, so may relate to a different incident.
OP screenshot: “Manchester Picadillly to Chester services are running as normal” @janb screenshot:"Customers can travel to Chester using services from Manchester Picadilly"
Honestly I’d like to thank all of this thread for their help! Frustratingly, I do not have a full screenshot of the cause but I’m trying to get Northern to send me an archive of it.
I have drafted a full response to the appeal which i will send in a moment. It’s long but if anyone has any ideas I’m happy to hear them
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Where did you find this? I’ve been looking online for a while to find the paragraph for the cancellations in full
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Here is my drafted response so far:
I am reappealing as I do not believe my case has been considered properly on both appeals I have made so far. The reasons provided for rejection have been wildly different on each separate occasions and seem to misrepresent or not understand my argument.
Before counteracting the points from TPE in my rejections, I will again reinstate my scenario. While attempting to travel from Bradford Interchange (14:05) to Manchester Victoria, a series of train cancellations occurred as a trainline was being inspected at Todmorden. This affected a lot of different trains, but importantly for this appeal no train was able to travel between Bradford Interchange and Manchester Victoria as the entire line was blocked. This was fully in place until around 18:00. Due to this, passengers in Bradford were advised to go to Leeds and get a train to the destination station as this would avoid the blocked route. This included TransPennine Express trains due to the circumstances, which was documented officially on the Northern website (see attached screenshot) This is not a case of being told incorrectly by an untrained member of staff in person and is a case of following official advice put in writing on the company’s website as a rare exception. I arrived at Leeds and then followed this advice by getting the 15:30 service towards Liverpool Lime St, being fined in Huddersfield and arriving at Manchester Victoria at 16:42.
My argument is that passengers were given official advice which is a result of an agreement between Northern and TPE in the cases of cancellations. The evidence for this has been provided every time, which is shown in the screenshot for the Northern website giving permission to ride TPE trains due to cancellations.
In my initial rejection, I was told “TransPennine does not accept permission received from another train company's member of staff for passengers to board the train without a valid ticket. You have stated in your appeal that rail staff either advised you, or gave permission for you, to board the train without a valid ticket for that service. However, we have been told by the train operating company that all staff have been trained not to give such advice or permission. In this case we can only accept this as mitigation for your appeal where proof has been provided by you that such permission was indeed given for you to board the train without a valid ticket to travel. As no such proof has been provided, we cannot consider this as relevant for this case.”. This is not a case of being told by a staff member, this is advice official from the train company as ticket acceptance in the case of cancellations exists between Northern and TPE. The screenshot I have provided would not have been published on the website without knowledge/permission from TPE as otherwise it would be blatant misinformation posted on an official company website. Furthermore, internally TPE will have evidence of this.
In my second appeal, they said “The information that you have provided refers to the Metrolink. This is not Northern Trains.”. This is irrelevant to my case. There was ticket acceptance in place due to the cancellations between TPE and Northern, which is shown in that screenshot. I unfortunately do not have the screenshot of the whole paragraph explaining the cause of the initial cancellations which were due to a fault/inspection of the tracks, however reading that screenshot clearly shows what I was discussing in my appeal. It does include other information which would affect other passengers, such as Metrolink however as said earlier and shown in my previous appeals it has nothing to do with my exact scenario. This whole paragraph of information (which is cut off from the screenshot) should be available to the people looking at this appeal, as ticket acceptance would have been discussed between Northern and TPE before the information came out.
Given that the information on TPE ticket acceptance is directly below the information on Metrolink, it feels at best the whole screenshot has not been read, or at worst my argument has been purposedly misconstrued. I have both included the screenshot unedited in full, as well as a screenshot circling the bit on ticket acceptance in red in order to clearly show the evidence I am referring to.
If there were travel easements between service providers it would have been emailed out internally, maybe look into it that way or ask customer services to look into it? Also have a look at communications from relevant toc’s at said time to see if they’ve informed the public.
If there were travel easements between service providers it would have been emailed out internally, maybe look into it that way or ask customer services to look into it? Also have a look at communications from relevant toc’s at said time to see if they’ve informed the public.
I just rang Northern since I asked for info like that a few days ago, there's nothing external about ticket acceptance and they couldn't send me internal emails, but I have a screenshot of the actual cancellation and reason now from them- do you think this would be sufficient for the appeal paired with the initial screenshot I have?
I just rang Northern since I asked for info like that a few days ago, there's nothing external about ticket acceptance and they couldn't send me internal emails, but I have a screenshot of the actual cancellation and reason now from them- do you think this would be sufficient for the appeal paired with the initial screenshot I have?
It is the responsibility of the railway company to provide evidence that what you have said is incorrect. I like the letter you have drafted, but perhaps you could insist that the appeal body request a full copy of that webpage that you have a screenshot of, and if for some obscure reason it has been lost or cannot be reproduced, you should be given the benefit of the doubt. Passengers should not be expected to collect and keep full documented records of everything affecting their journey. The industry professionals should be doing that. If Northern posted that website notice without TPE's knowledge or agreement then that's an inter-company issue and there is no way that ordinary passengers should be made to suffer financial punishment on top of the severe disruption to their journeys on the day.
It is the responsibility of the railway company to provide evidence that what you have said is incorrect. I like the letter you have drafted, but perhaps you could insist that the appeal body request a full copy of that webpage that you have a screenshot of, and if for some obscure reason it has been lost or cannot be reproduced, you should be given the benefit of the doubt. Passengers should not be expected to collect and keep full documented records of everything affecting their journey. The industry professionals should be doing that. If Northern posted that website notice without TPE's knowledge or agreement then that's an inter-company issue and there is no way that ordinary passengers should be made to suffer financial punishment on top of the severe disruption to their journeys on the day.
Furthermore, I implore that the appeal body request the website notice from Northern which was posted on the 12/06 showing the full information of the disruption, as well as the internal proceedings regarding the ticket acceptance to further support my case. Throughout my prior appeals I have consistently tried to be as clear as possible and provide as much evidence as I possibly can as a passenger however in responses from Penalty services I am uncertain on whether the prior officers have performed their due diligence in finding this documentation as I have not been informed of this in my rejections.
It was taken from an internal system. If trying to point someone towards it, if it was indeed on the 12th June, Northern were in CSL2 between 1420 and 1825 due to track defect at Littleborough, and had arranged ticket acceptance with TPE between Leeds and Manchester Victoria. You followed the instructions of station staff to this effect.
If the problem at Hebden Bridge was expected to result in delay of an hour or more, then Northern were obliged to offer re-routing. For Bradford to Manchester ticket holders, the easiest and only sensible alternative was via Leeds and Trans Pennine. That Northern did this should come as little surprise and shouldn`t require much by way of proof.
Faced with multiple passengers all offering the same explanation, the Trans Pennine ticket inspector should have known that their story was, at the very least, plausible. If he didn`t wish to take the passengers word for it, he could easily have checked. To issue penalty fares was an abuse and, possibly, a breach of byelaw 6 (8).
Regardless of the outcome of the third appeal, this case needs taking up with the MD of Trans Pennine. The OP should be compensated. Other affected passengers who may have simply paid the penalty fares should be traced, reimbursed and compensated.
