Help with final Penalty Fare appeal

[douglaskipping]

Looking for advice on 3rd appeal against a penalty fare. I'd welcome any questions that might bring up relevant info I haven't previously included, especially from anyone with an understanding of criteria for granting an appeal. Also, if anyone has the time to read my full appeal that I've attached, I used up the maximum characters allowed, so it would also be good to know what to leave out if I'm adding anything on this attempt.

The rejection letter I received by email was dated 26 August, I'm not sure how to interpret the deadline but it's probably Monday or Tuesday, so I'd be very grateful for any responses in the next couple of days.

• The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey: Burnage to Manchester Piccadilly
• The stations* where you changed trains (if applicable); N/A
• If you presented a ticket(s), the information* stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details; N/A
• Details of any Railcard(s) held; N/A
• When and where ticket(s) were purchased, including whether this was prior to the journey commencing; N/A
• What happened in any encounter with railway staff: see below

TLDR:

• Not regular train user
• Always use app to buy ticket
• Bike with me, train delayed - delayed buying ticket until I knew the train was coming - would’ve cycled if quicker
• Boarded train while buying ticket on app, not knowing phone would stop working
• Attempted to buy ticket at Piccadilly

I normally cycle for local journeys, e.g. to work. As I was on a tight schedule between engagements, I wanted to take my bike on the train from Burnage to Manchester.
When I use the train I buy tickets on the northern Rail app. The display showed "delayed" with no expected time for the next train, so I held off buying a ticket to see whether cycling would be quicker. When the expected time showed, I started buying a ticket but my phone's touchscreen was glitching. I boarded the train on the basis that the issue would resolve. While on the train I remembered there are people selling tickets to people alighting on the platform at Piccadilly.
When I tried to use this service, the ticket seller asked me to wait and consulted someone else. I was asked why I didn't have a ticket, when I explained they said I had boarded without a ticket at PF station so he would issue a PF notice. I explained my phone had stopped working, and got it out to try again to buy a ticket with the app. Flustered by the situation and with several uniformed staff looking at me, I fumbled my phone which fell face down on the floor. After that it definitely didn't work. They said they’d include all the mitigating circumstances I had told them on the Penalty Fare Notice (or report them internally?), they weren't on the notice. They advised me to attach old tickets to any appeal to help my case (which I did).

I understand that my mistake was to board the train without a ticket. The crux of my argument is that my phone choosing this moment to stop working is exeptionally unlucky enough to mitigate my mistake, and it's clear it was a mistake and not intentional. As I say in my 2nd appeal - a penalty is a punishment /deterrent. They say in their letter that a PF is not an accusation of fare avoidance - if I am not believed to have deliberately evaded the fare, then what purpose does it serve - a reminder perhaps? This has taken over the last month of my life and I won't be forgetting it for a while.

additional mitigating information:

• ADHD, with autistic spectrum traits (awaiting diagnosis)
• in a hurry and didn’t see signs re PF rules

Additional questions:

• In the 2nd appeal outcome letter they state that the app is only for buying tickets in advance - Sometimes if the train is due soon, tickets aren't available for it, so I try and get one for the next train with the same fare, having been advised to do this by rail staff. I thought the Northern Rail machines also sold tickets for specific trains and stopped selling them about 10-15 minutes before departure. This is based on my memory from before I got the app, but now I research this and it seems no longer to be the case, if it ever was?
• I read somewhere that "mitigating circumstances" aren't even considered in the first 2 appeal stages, and there's something specifically different about the 3rd which means that they are - so if I submit the exact same appeal a 3rd time I have a better chance of success?
• I also read here that a) after an appeal is made, pursuing a PF becomes a civil (not criminal) matter, and b) Northern Rail are unlikely to take it to County Court. Can anyone confirm this? Obviously a risky strategy (failing a 3rd appeal) to refuse to pay /do nothing and rely on this - my next port of call might be NR's complaints procedure - any advice on my bext option in this event?

My desired outcome is for the Penalty Fare to be waived, and for me to pay the normal fare for the journey.


Thanks in anticipation of any help

Please see relevant documents attached (first time poster so apologies if my attachments could have been done better)

 

[furlong]

Some quick points.

Get pictures of the signage about Penalty Fares at Burnage and add to the appeal the grounds that they don't conform to the regulations because some of the precise words required are missing and that there are insufficient notices - if you think that to be the case after comparing what you see with the regulations. Clearly you didn't see them so something must be wrong. (There are examples of appeals on these grounds on other threads here.)

What the railway wanted you to do was purchase a ticket whether or not you were going to use it, and then if you decided not to travel because of the delay, they would refund it in full (see NRCoT 30.1). Alternatively, if you had cash with you, you could have used the ticket machine at Burnage station to obtain a free 'Promise to Pay' ticket - and then have handed this over at Manchester along with cash for your ticket. (In future, carry enough cash for this purpose.)

The bit about accusation of fare avoidance is just playing with semantics - it is technically not an accusation as they say, but nevertheless they aren't intended for people who weren't attempting to avoid paying (but the system puts the burden of proof on you to persuade them of that). Those letters are often unsatisfactory (there are further errors in your example) but there's little mileage in pursuing problems with the letters in any appeal as that's not how appeals work. Similarly your appeal isn't based on breaching discretion guidelines, as you've already worked out, it's based on the appeals body making its own decision taking into account extra information not available to the inspector at the time, see "compelling reasons" in 16(3)(d).

One of your sentences is relevant - that by the time the display confirmed the train wasn't cancelled, there wasn't time to go and use the machine. Regarding your medical condition, if you want to be sure they will take it into account it would be best to supply (minimal) medical evidence (e.g. prescription, diagnosis, or appointment or referral letter).

There is no limit on the number of characters in an appeal under the regulations. If you hit an artificial limitation in their implementation, you can work around it by uploading your full appeal as an attachment.

In your final appeal focus only on things that matter in terms of the regulations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2025 ==

Also look at how it was you didn't see any ticket machines.
(I've seen some in that area doubling as advertising panels with no obvious clue they will actually sell tickets if you touch them!)

 

[douglaskipping]

Thanks for the quick reply, I'll try and get more evidence tomorrow

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2025 ==

I went to Burnage station and took some photos. There's only one penalty fare notice, at the entrance to the station. There's actually a way into the station where you don't pass it.
The other thing i found was the ticket machine didn't seem to be working, and didn't say tickets on it apart from faintly on the flap where tickets (presumably) would come out.

Can you tell me whether this sign would be compliant? I saw a quote from you @furlong, quoting relevant regs, not sure if they've changed since then (2023), but it said the amount of the penalty should be quoted as at least £20 + original fare? I can't see where my watched threads are so sorry if I've misremembered

 

[furlong]

Look at this example https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stansted-airport-fines.253779/page-3#post-6421189

The precise words required “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare” are missing. (As discussed elsewhere in contrast to the mandated words their own exaggerated version is inaccurate and misleading and relies on later words to partially correct the error - the amount you may have to pay is often below £100 if paid on time, and you might not "have to pay" it at all if you win an appeal.)

On placement, you say there is an entrance without a notice which would violate this (the bit about compulsory ticket areas doesn't apply here):

8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(2) Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.

I'd suggest you lead with that argument - that you returned to the station to check and state that the entrance at X does not have a notice (while it's their job to verify this, not yours to prove it, do make it nice and easy for them by providing the evidence yourself), then also mention the incorrect words on the other notice meaning it doesn't count as a notice, and then mention that you saw no notice before boarding, confirming that "at least one notice is" not "readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station" and so that's three reasons Penalty Fares don't apply from that station in terms of the regulations. You can tie this back to your words in an earlier appeal where you said you didn't know what they meant in terms of a Penalty Fares station - if you now think this is the reason why, namely that the station doesn't comply with the regulations in respect of notices to inform passengers about this (and so, as a matter of fact, isn't one).