Help: TFL prosecution advice

[russell88]

Hi everyone,

Would be grateful if you could read and offer any advice you may have.

Received a single justice procedure notice today for an incident last November.

what happened was I was out the night before and fell asleep on bus home and woke up way north London. I walked until I found an overground station. My phone was dead but luckily I had cash on me. I bought an oyster card and topped it up with £5. (I only ever travel between zone 1-2 so I presumed would cover fare). I got on train going to Liverpool Street then fell asleep again. I woke up in Clapton then next stop was St James. I realised I was going north again so got off and changed trains to go back to Liverpool Street. when I tried exit it wouldn't open and ticket inspector came over to me. He asked where I came from and told him St James. He checked my oyster and he said I tapped in at Theobalds Grove. I told him I never heard of it which I didn't. He said I was minus 60p on card and it was fare evasion and took my details. He took the oyster card also so I had to buy another one to get rest of way home. Anyways it was a rough morning and I just wanted to get home.

later I googled theobalds grove and recognised it as the one I got that morning. Then I realised it was zone 7!!!I checked fare from there to Liverpool Street and to was £5.60 so I was £0.60p short of the fare. When the letter came TFL a few weeks later I wrote back explaining the case and I didn't want to pay fine over £0.60 mistake. Then today I get letter saying I am going to be prosecuted.

I plan to plead guilty because yes technically my ticket was invalid but I was thinking about going to court and hopefully explaining myself. Im worried as its a bit of a convoluted story and it happened after a night out, im not sure how the judge will react to to it. Its so much money to have to pay for £0.60p and also I am a student dietitian and worry about background checks as I will be working in the NHS. Is it worthwhile going to court or should I just accept I will have to pay a some hundreds?

Thanks in advance

 

[matt_world2004]

A negative fare on oyster doesn't usually constitute fare evasion indeed this is what the deposit is for to cover when there is not enough credit on the oyster card

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/negative_oyster_card_balance

How long did you sleep on the train

If you exceeded 2 hours 25 minutes its possible the original touch in disappeared off the oyster card . This would not be grounds for a pf/prosecution in itself but it could require investigating to establish that you did originally touch in.

 

[John R]

I suspect fare evasion is suspected because the OP gave a different station as their start point to the one the Oyster showed was tapped in at. And you can understand that when this was queried they claimed never to have heard of the station they started at would raise some doubts as to the story being offered.

A question for the OP, it sounds as though the first letter was fining you, but you refused to pay, saying you were only prepared to pay the 60p owed? And having sent that refusal, the upshot is you’ve now had the notice of prosecution. Is that correct? (Or was the first correspondence just asking for your side of the story?)

 

[Haywain]

If you exceeded 2 hours 25 minutes its possible the original touch in disappeared off the oyster card . This would not be grounds for a pf/prosecution in itself but it could require investigating to establish that you did originally touch in.

This seems unlikely given that the OP says he was told he had touched in at Theobalds Grove.

 

[some bloke]

Despite the SJPN, you can still try to persuade TfL to give up the prosecution. The last resort for that would be to go to court early, ask staff where the prosecutor is and try to persuade them.

What is the alleged offence, and how much time do you have? Would you like to upload photos of their letter, your letter and the SJPN, with all identifying details removed?

I am a student dietitian and worry about background checks as I will be working in the NHS.

See if the regulatory body's website has information on what you would need to declare to them - is it the Health and Care Professions Council?

Is it an HCPC-approved course? If so, it looks like you have to tell the university about the SJPN.

"You should tell your education provider, as soon as possible, if you are charged with, convicted of, or accept a caution for, any offence."

https://www.hcpc-uk.org/resources/guidance/guidance-on-conduct-and-ethics-for-students/

Your student union may provide some free legal advice, and/or advice on whether a conviction would be likely to cause a problem (or advice on how to find out).

People are often worried about the effects of convictions on their careers, when the attitude of the regulatory body may be that it isn't relevant to job performance. So you could contact the regulatory body as well.

 

[superjohn]

I understood that Oyster would allow exit with a negative balance, you wouldn’t be able to start another journey without topping up though. Has this changed? @MikeWh we need you!

 

[Haywain]

It would help if the OP could provide more details about what happened, such as the time leaving Theobalds Grove and the time being apprehended at Liverpool Street. Then we might be able to piece together what happened and why fare evasion is suspected.

 

[superjohn]

Further to my previous point that Oyster should have allowed exit even if it resulted in a negative balance. I wonder if the £5.60 was actually a maximum fare charged because the original touch in at Theobalds Grove had already timed out as an incomplete journey. That would make the -60p a red herring. The gate wouldn’t open as it was set to exit but the card wasn’t showing a touch in by that stage.

I really don’t see how else the process would get so far just because of a 60p shortfall on credit.

 

[John R]

Further to my previous point that Oyster should have allowed exit even if it resulted in a negative balance. I wonder if the £5.60 was actually a maximum fare charged because the original touch in at Theobalds Grove had already timed out as an incomplete journey. That would make the -60p a red herring. The gate wouldn’t open as it was set to exit but the card wasn’t showing a touch in by that stage.

I really don’t see how else the process would get so far just because of a 60p shortfall on credit.

Because the OP, when asked, gave an incorrect station as to where their journey commenced?

 

[matt_world2004]

Because the OP, when asked, gave an incorrect station as to where their journey commenced?

Albeit an incorrect station that would have been covered by his original touch in because it was a zone that his original station would have went through. He would have been charged a zone 7-1 journey from Theobald's road which would have been valid at st James Street

 

[MikeWh]

I understood that Oyster would allow exit with a negative balance, you wouldn’t be able to start another journey without topping up though. Has this changed? @MikeWh we need you!

It's not changed if within maximum journey time, but I strongly suspect that this is two incomplete journeys.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Some timings on this might be helpful. If it was late at night, it's hard to find the train which would have taken you into London from Theobalds Grove, and then taken you towards Chingford, for you to get off at St. James's Street while there were still trains going back to London. Or was it so late that you actually caught the first train of the day at 0519, which would have taken you to London arriving platform 2 at 0555, departing at 0603 towards Chingford arriving 0617 at St. James's Street for you to catch the 0621 back to London arriving 0636.

 

[matt_world2004]

Some timings on this might be helpful. If it was late at night, it's hard to find the train which would have taken you into London from Theobalds Grove, and then taken you towards Chingford, for you to get off at St. James's Street while there were still trains going back to London. Or was it so late that you actually caught the first train of the day at 0519, which would have taken you to London arriving platform 2 at 0555, departing at 0603 towards Chingford arriving 0617 at St. James's Street for you to catch the 0621 back to London arriving 0636.

If he got charged a peak fare he would have needed to have touched in a Theobolds grove at 6:30 am or later Monday to Friday so it was a heavy night . The 6:36 from Theobald's grove to Liverpool street then goes to Chingford and back

 

[Haywain]

Some timings on this might be helpful. If it was late at night, it's hard to find the train which would have taken you into London from Theobalds Grove, and then taken you towards Chingford, for you to get off at St. James's Street while there were still trains going back to London. Or was it so late that you actually caught the first train of the day at 0519, which would have taken you to London arriving platform 2 at 0555, departing at 0603 towards Chingford arriving 0617 at St. James's Street for you to catch the 0621 back to London arriving 0636.

There are several unanswered questions, starting with arriving in that area by bus when it appears that the nearest you would get on a night bus is the end of the N279 route, and that is actually closer to Waltham Cross station than Theobalds Grove. There's then a question of just how many journeys the train might have made with the OP on board - if the maximum journey time was exceeded that would seem to suggest well over 2 hours on the train!

 

[JBuchananGB]

If he got charged a peak fare

Well spotted. OP said the fare would have been £5.60, which is indeed the peak fare. Not so much a late night as an early morning!

 

[Haywain]

he 6:36 from Theobald's grove to Liverpool street then goes to Chingford and back

Running through the times on RTT it appears to have a couple of round trips to Enfield Town in between! I know there's no guarantee that RTT shows the reality of the stock diagram but...

 

[MikeWh]

We all seem to have missed a crucial point, until now.

for an incident last November

Well spotted. OP said the fare would have been £5.60, which is indeed the peak fare. Not so much a late night as an early morning!

So, last year the incomplete journey charge would have been £5.60 before 0630, or £8.20 between 0630-0930. The peak fare would still have been £5.60, but that is NOT what is being talked about. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the maximum journey time had been spent waiting for the first train. If touch in was after 0430 then the maximum journey time to Liverpool Street would be just 2 hours 10 minutes.

 

[Haywain]

We all seem to have missed a crucial point, until now.

So, last year the incomplete journey charge would have been £5.60 before 0630, or £8.20 between 0630-0930. The peak fare would still have been £5.60, but that is NOT what is being talked about. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the maximum journey time had been spent waiting for the first train. If touch in was after 0430 then the maximum journey time to Liverpool Street would be just 2 hours 10 minutes.

Good spot, and good knowledge. Would still help to have the OP give more details, but we know that they don't always return.

 

[Western Sunset]

I wonder if the OP really remembers either.....