Help - Sitting in First class with Standard Class ticket

[gingerheid]

One thing occured to me.....why not just stand up to take the call in the First Class cabin, and then leave? Why sit down? I take it the inspector saw you when you were seated and then reprimanded you. Were you off the phone when this occured?

I'm pretty sure there was a well publicised case where someone felt aggrieved at being fined for standing outside the toilet door in the vestibule of a carriage in an overcrowded train on an intercity route...

I must say I've noticed just how active FCC's revenue protection staff (both uniformed and plain clothed) have been recently. I'd say I'm having my ticket checked on well over 50% of my journeys on the fast trains between Cambridge and London; at different times of the day during the week and at the weekend, and even on non stoppers where one person can only check tickets on 4 out of the carriages on trains that run non-stop between two stations with gates!

 

[Ferret]

Was the seat reserved? there letter doesn't even mention what you have actually done? I would probably just deny sitting in a reserved seat and not even mention being in first on a standard ticket

Irrelevant, and not advice I suggest the OP takes.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Don't deny you did it, apologise and seek an out of court settlement - which will be a three figure sum. Pay that and it won't go to court. . . . .

Was the seat reserved? there letter doesn't even mention what you have actually done? I would probably just deny sitting in a reserved seat and not even mention being in first on a standard ticket

. . . . It would be very risky to try and be cheeky and get off on a technicality . . . .

There are examples of successful arguments such as this offered to Court from time to time, after which, passengers do avoid prosecution for Offences that they have, apparently, committed; such minor but significant details well presented can be persuasive. I will admit that there is a glimmer of a prospect of success in Querty133's interpretation.
However, it is a gamble, and losing can be more injurious than following the advice already proposed on here. It is a gamble that should be taken with an experienced advocate - a more than competent Defence Solicitor or Barrister will improve the odds.

. . . not advice I suggest the OP takes.

Neither do I.

 

[Nick W]

The railway byelaw states the following:

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

I suspect there are defences pertaining to not seeing the notices, leaving as soon as the notices have been seen or being trapped in that part of train based on the use of the word "remain". This would not appear to apply in the OP's case.

Edit: Dave has beaten me to posting. I would be keen to know whether the stated offence should have been closer to the railway byelaw from which it was derived, and if this has any bearing.

 

[snail]

It doesn't just say seat though. Surely they are referring to berth?

No, it says "reserved seat, Berth or train", covering all bases I suspect. Are First Class seats reserved for holders of First Class tickets?

 

[jon0844]

That's what I meant, hence singling out seat in a previous message to use as a (shaky) defence won't work.

 

[kangzy]

Guys would you advice writing back on the form FCC have provided or a separate letter apologising? Last thing I want to do is aggravate the situation even more

 

[snail]

That's what I meant, hence singling out seat in a previous message to use as a (shaky) defence won't work.

Ah, ok. I misunderstood your reference.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
While checking something for another thread I came across Byelaw 19:

19 Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

That appears to cover the 'reserved seat, berth or train' reference.

 

[revenueadvice]

It always amazes me how many people think that RPI's are just in a bad mood or being jobsworths.

Unfortunately you probably did just nip into first class so you could hear on the phone call,probably if the RPI had come along 30 seconds earlier he would have seen you take the call and go into first class to take it. He would probably have then used discretion and allowed you too finish the call before moving back into standard class. You are probably a victim of bad timing. Once the RPI comes into first class and you only have a standard ticket then you are very likely too be charged a penalty.

The problem is everyone has a "genuine" reason why they are there or why they don't have a ticket. There is also a large amount of people who when challenged for a ticket respond with "no ticket, no money, no ID" they then give some dodgy name and address, if lucky enough and we can get a police officer to deal with them then we usually find...They did have money, the name and address are wrong and they did have ID on them.

Unfortunately dealing with so many people every day that are lying and trying to play the system does make you cynical!

 

[bb21]

Guys would you advice writing back on the form FCC have provided or a separate letter apologising? Last thing I want to do is aggravate the situation even more

I do not believe this would make too much difference. If I were you, I would complete the form in the first place, and if there were not enough space, attach additional sheets and make it clear how many pages there are.

If you decide to fill in the form, make sure you draft your response on a separate piece of paper and only copy in the content once you're happy with it.

 

[kangzy]

Thanks guys for all your advice.

i have written the letter and sent off. Fingers crossed they will accept my apology.

 

[kangzy]

Hi guys/girls

Just seeking some further advice. I had a reply last week from FCC prosecutions department asking me to call them to discuss the incident. I have just managed get through and speak to someone. He mentioned quite a few things which went over my head about the by laws and possible outcome if it went to court

Bottom line was, that the was implying a settlement out of court which I very happy about. Now, he quoted that the cost of my first class ticket for my journey at the time was about £14 and mentioned something about a “£120 court application cost” which also needs to be considered. He wanted me to send him an email offering compensation “of a certain amount” with a good chance that it will be accepted.

The thing is I don’t know what is a reasonable offer of compensation? What should I offer? Unfortunately, I do not earn as much as I would like so ideally I would want to offer as least as possible.

Can you guys/girls please advice?

Thanks in advance

 

[bb21]

I would think that offering the amount mentioned would be a good place to start, so £134.

Would you be happy to offer this amount?

 

[tony6499]

Sounds like he was telling you exactly how much you should offer

 

[Ferret]

I would think that offering the amount mentioned would be a good place to start, so £134.

I agree, and would urge the OP to offer that immediately to bring the matter to a close.

 

[revenueadvice]

Yeah offer £134. If he has implied they will accept a settlement and has told you the 2 costs involved then i'm guessing that is him saying "I'm not going to tell you how much we will accept but these are the costs." Get a cheque in the post and move on...Happy days!