Help needed with fine / court appearance

[softlad]

Hi All,

Newbie to the forum, and really looking for some advice!

A friend was recently travelling from Paddington to Cheltenham and had booked her ticket with FGW.

She was on a train which was due to arrive into Cheltenham at 22.03 on the day in question, unfortunatley the train she was on was running late. Upon arriving at Gloucester the conductor announced that due to the delay the train was being held and that for faster onward travel passengers should disembark and join the 22.47 from Gloucester to New Street as this train would arrive earlier.

She left the train with several other passengers, and joined this trrain. The problem starts when she was asked to present a ticket and realised that this had been left on the previous service, she was unable to pay or provide a valid ticket and as such she provided her address and subsequently received a letter from Transport Investigations Ltd who are now looking to prosecute. The matter is listed for the magistrates hearing for this Friday.

Now, she is able to prove that she had a valid ticket as she has the receipt and the online booking confirmation, however, the train that she transferred to was a Cross Country, not FGW train so they are arguing that a valid ticket was never purchased.

Is it possible that the Magistrates will deal with this manner applying some common sense. My friend wasnt trying to deceive anyone, she had a ticket for travel between the 2 stations in question and was travelling late at night, alone. The only reason she changed train was after advisement to do so to reach her destination earlier.....

To some end I think she should make an offer to settle now, as she really couldnt afford an adverse costs order to be made against her on Friday, but as a point of principle she wants to argue it....

Any advice or knowledge of previous events would be greatly received.

If i've missed anything out, let me know!!

Sorry for rambling!!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Help from this forum has assisted others in similar situations, though usually with more time in advance of a Court hearing listed for just a few days ahead.

It is going to be worth trying to make a settlement even at this short notice, because the risk of arguing the matter in Court is that you/she will loose and, depending on the actual charge, may have a Criminal record as a consequence.

The ability to 'win' in Cort will require a decent amount of preparation examining the documents and relevant Law - these will be disclosed by either side, possibly by as much as a week before the hearing, meaning that the opportunity to produce new evidence may have passed and requesting an adjournement is the only way forward. That request may be refused.

The Magistrates will be directed to examine the Law and the evidence and not to be distracted by 'common sense'. A lawyer will be necessary if you are to let it go to Court and expect to win at this late stage; and lawyers with a knowledge of Railway Law are very few indeed! Sorry.

Before any of us (or a local solicitor) can help, we would have to know exactly which offence is being prosecuted, either the wording or the Section number of the Act or Byelaw will be on the paperwork. That will be useful. Other details we'd appreciate include exactly what the 'advice' was to change trains and by whom it was given, exactly how long the 'delay' was and where, and what was said at the point where she couldn't produce the ticket for inspection - was a statement taken then and was any paperwork presented then?

Finally for now, I'll repeat that at this late stage and without legal representation or familiarity with Court procedure and Railway Law, I will strongly urge an attempt to settle. That would be an offer to pay their costs (which might now be £200 or more), the cost of the ticket, and apology for the inconvenience and a simple statement that a valid ticket WAS held while travelling on the railway tho was sadly left on the earlier, delayed train and enclosing the copy of the booking confirmation. Quote the Case number at the top of the letter/email.

 

[softlad]

Thanks DN,

The exact wording is that there was a "failure to procduce a valid ticket when requested contrary to bylaw 18.2 of railway bylaws made under section 219 of the transport act".

My friend was advised whilst at Gloucester that the train they were on would be departing after the earlier CrossCountry service and that to expedite their journey to Cheltenham passengers should join that service. Numerous people did so, but as the full reason for providing a name and address was not given my friend failed to ask for names of other passengers that would be potential witness to the statement.

Do you think if I can get data proving the train was late that would be sufficient?

On an entirely without prejudice basis, what kind of offer do you think should be made? The fare from Glos to Chelt was £3.90?

 

[LexyBoy]

I don't think anyone will dispute DaveNewcastle's advice, though of course it is gutting to admit defeat (and the cost) for such a matter.

...and a simple statement that a valid ticket WAS held while travelling on the railway tho was sadly left on the earlier, delayed train and enclosing the copy of the booking confirmation.

Although if it was an Advance ticket, it would not have been valid on the XC service.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

That detail is useful, but does confirm that it is the so-called 'absolute offence' which is (generally, though not always) taken as a matter of fact that the offence has been committed (not being able to produce the ticket on request) and that the supplimentary facts don't help us.

I remain with the opinion that the best solution would be that an offer was proposed by you/her and was accepted as soon as possible. The statement that you/she boarded the XC train under the instruction of a member of FGW railway staff at Gloucester station is worth including in the letter/email, but it does not alter the fact that the offence has, technically, been committed.

To be quite clear with you, I would have been optomistic about this charge being dropped after a simple apology and explanation at a much earlier stage if there is no record of any previous 'irregularity' with rail travel. However, that opportunity has long passed; FGW will have prepared their evidence (statements and legal argument) and have notified the Court and instructed Lawyers. They have incurred actual costs and my earlier estimate of £200 might actually be on the low side!
If you want to settle this once and for all and avoid the risk of a successful Prosecution then your offer must be realistic. Yes, advice here is Without Prejudice, of course, as should be your offer. You may have to make the statement and offer to settle by email and follow it up with a phone call to the Prosecutions Manager to attempt to agree a figure. If the price quoted is twice that, and there is difficulty in paying that much, then you could offer to pay in a couple of instalments, but anything like a protracted £20 a month for x years is not going to help.

Where you may be lucky (and I do mean luck) is in discussion with the Prosecution's Manager. With a simple statment of the facts (you DID have a ticket but lost it. You WERE instructed to change trains by a member of staff. You have never had any previous incident on the railways. You have no Criminal Convictions, County Court Jugements or Unresolved Police Cautions. You are simply an honest ticket buying passenger caught up in some administrative inter-company railway matter that you know nothing about. etc) then the Prosecutions Manager may, just may, be sympathetic and 'let you off'.

Your alternatives are :
1. to instruct a local lawyer at short notice (they'd probably request an adjournement, all adding to the cost of legal time) and may or may not be able to argue the innocence of the passenger, despite the fact that the 'absolute offence' has apparently been proved (you still haven't told us what statement if any was made at the time the ticket was requested but not produced); or
2. to defend yourself/herself in the Magistrates Court. They'll be sypathetic to a good sob-story (!) but will be instructed to make their decision based on the evidence and the law (that 'absolute offence' of not having the ticket when requested) and if you/she starts producing print-outs of the ticket booking, then the prosecution lawyer will make a noise about aducing new evidence. Similarly, if you/she wanted to cross-examine the witness (the ticket inspector or guard) then they will have to have been served notice to attend court. Its too late for that unless you succeed with the request to adjourn.

I am full of admiration for the individual who is willing to stand up in Court to defend their innocence and their name against large corporate bodies, but sadly the time to do that well has probably passed. I wouldn't want you/her to walk away from Court on Friday with a Criminal Record as well as a fine.

 

[softlad]

Hi Dave,

Many thanks for this, it really is great advice.

She has just sent me a copy of the summons, which seems to advise costs of £105-00 will be sought as well as the £3.90 fare.

Would you suggest attempting to negotiate this level of costs, or go for the full amount.

Given that they have seemingly set their costs, would they be able to try and increase these if a court hearing occured?

Finally, under what circumstances could she get a criminal record?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The figure stated for the 'costs' claim is useful. In addition, the Court may impose a fine (starting level around £180) and a victim surcharge (maybe £20).
An Out of Court Settlement avoids those other charges, you could just offer £120.00

It is very unusual for an 'absolute' Byelaw offence to result in a Criminal Record (because 'criminal intent' does not need to be proved and will not be claimed), however, it can happen, particularly if there is any adverse history or the argument shifts into some more incriminating detail (which somone defending themselves can easily do - e.g. "but it can't be wrong because I've been doing it every day for years and never been stopped" - Ooooops!).

I'm not going to recommend trying to negotiate the costs downwards - it could just work against you. Rather follow my suggestion of a simple and honest plea of innocence and regret which I mentioned above.
Yes, costs will increase as the matter moves on. The meter is running. Their hourly rate applies and is quickly multiplied as other people become involved.

[For the record. I am not usually so pessimistic about the outcome of these sorts of incidents, and others reading this in the future should not be so disheartened. My lack of confidence in this case is largely due to the fact that this is listed for Court hearing only 3 days from now and we may still have facts of the matter which we don't know and haven't considered.]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I should have added, that if you make a written offer and explanation, copies of all correspondence at this stage should go to the Revenue Protection & Prosecutions Dept (I don't know the exact name but that should do) of Cross Country Trains; to Transport Investigation Ltd.; and to the Clerk to the Court (at the address of the Magistrates Court to which you are Summonsed).
They will all provide an email address if asked by phone.
Correspondence should quote the name of the parties (yourself and Cross Country), the name of the Court, and the Case Reference No

 

[talltim]

On a side note I notice you mention a victim surcharge. Who is the victim in this case? although the OP's friend is guilty of being unable to produce a ticket, a ticket was purchased (assuming it was valid on the second train)so no-one has lost anything. In fact if FGW win then they would have recieved an extra £3.90, that hardly makes them an victim.
Or am I missing the point of the victim surcharge?

 

[snail]

Or am I missing the point of the victim surcharge?

Yes. It's a general levy on all court fines to fund Victim Support, introduced by the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004.

 

[softlad]

Hi All Again,

Just thought i'd drop an update... Remarkably the case has been dropped by CrossCountry and the summons withdrawn.

Maybe they were running it til the last possible moment, then backed out?

Who knows..??

Thanks for all the help and advice though!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm sure that new is a great relief!

We'll probably never know for sure why they dropped the claim - I'd like to think that it was cofirmation of the late running of the FGW train and the subsequent advice to take the Cross Country train by rail staff.

WHatever the reason, I hope this incident doesn't deter you and your friend from rail travel in future!

 

[Smethwickian]

WHatever the reason, I hope this incident doesn't deter you and your friend from rail travel in future!

... but remembering in future to always, always have your ticket to hand and to check, check and check again when changing trains, going to the loo or whatever that you haven't dropped it or left it behind.