Help needed: Ticket from closer station!

[John1991]

Hello everybody,

Late yesterday, i boarded the train from darwen to manchester victoria, now for the most part i kept nodding off on the train, but when we reached manchester and walked up the stairs, they had a barrier as they sometime do to catch people out. I went over to the guy selling tickets and queued up. Upon rifling through my pockets for the money i thought i had, i couldnt find enough to pay for my full fare, as my 16-25 railpass is currently out of date(ended february, and have been paying full fare since). Upon getting up to pay i asked (very foolishly) for a ticket from salford central. the man oblidged, made me pay for the ticket, then as soon as it was printed he proceeded to get somebody else to talk to me. For about 10 seconds i panicked and tried lying saying i was in a rush, but when he asked me directly i came clean and said i didnt have enough cash on me to pay, he took my details told me to expect a letter and i went on my way (without the ticket i payed for too). On a further note, when he was questioning me i wasnt thinking straight and he asked if i think he asked if i intened to board the train without enough money, and i said yes, but i meant i got to pay and found i didn't have enough money.

I know what i have done is foolish and irresponsible, what has frightened me most, is getting home and finding out i could receive a criminal record, as i am a trainee accountant at this stage it would ruin my career.

I understand that you will not go easy on me, and im hoping that anybody could offer me advice on how to minimise my chances of going to court, i dont mind paying a penalty just the conviction will really hurt.

Thanks

John1991

 

[Swirlz]

If it's your first time, likely to be an £80 Administrative Penalty, issued by Northern.

Pay that and no further action should occur - unless you do it again.

 

[John1991]

aye its my first time, but all of these other posts seems extremely serious which is what worries me

John1991

 

[island]

swirlz is right - just don't do it again! You'll probably get a letter in the next 6 weeks about it.

 

[ainsworth74]

aye its my first time, but all of these other posts seems extremely serious which is what worries me

That would be because it is a serious matter. As you've identified fare evasion can lead to a criminal record with all the damage that can do to your future career prospects.

As it is the most likely outcome is that you'll be issued with a £80 fixed penalty, pay it and that will be the end of the matter. I would strongly advise that you do not do this again as it will most likely be detected and in the event of a second offence will probably lead to court rather than a settlement.

 

[John1991]

thank you for your quick replies, and i do understand the severity of the matter, when the letter comes, may i post again for further advice on responding?

John1991

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course

 

[John1991]

thank you, and thanks again for replying so quick

 

[trc666]

From what I can see on the National Rail Enquiries website Darwen does not appear to have any ticket issuing facilities but did you make any attempt to approach the guard on board the train to buy a ticket?

Salford Central does not have ticket barriers but it is likely you would have been caught out by what is called a short fare exercise, where revenue protection staff are present at stations adjacent to a major station (in your case this is Salford Central which is next to Manchester Victoria), so they will know that you have travelled from further afield as nobody would have been able to enter or leave that station without a valid ticket whilst they are there.

 

[bb21]

Late yesterday, i boarded the train from darwen to manchester victoria, now for the most part i kept nodding off on the train, but when we reached manchester and walked up the stairs, they had a barrier as they sometime do to catch people out.

No, they don't do it to catch people out. AFAIK the manual barriers at Victoria are almost always there. They are there to protect their revenue from people who do not pay their fare, who quite often had no intention to.

On a further note, when he was questioning me i wasnt thinking straight and he asked if i think he asked if i intened to board the train without enough money, and i said yes, but i meant i got to pay and found i didn't have enough money.

While I agree with the majority of what others said, this causes some concerns for me. You have basically admitted that it was your intention to not pay the correct fare, demonstrated by having insufficient money with you, and this imo presents a very easy case for Northern to secure a conviction in.

This would however not be a cost-effective solution for them as the amount they are likely to recover will likely be much less than what they get through an out-of-court settlement of £80. (That is not to say that you will pay less if convicted, just that the bulk of it will go to the state instead.)

An out-of-court settlement of £80 still seems the most likely outcome for you, however I would not be surprised if Northern do decide to go through with prosecution to make an example of you.

 

[John1991]

Thank you for your further replies, as far as the guard on the train i didnt notice one, but i did fall asleep half way through the journey. Then i proceeded to go up and pay at the first attended off the train.

I will keep you updated, and let you know when i get my letter

John1991

 

[Olympian]

From what I can see on the National Rail Enquiries website Darwen does not appear to have any ticket issuing facilities but did you make any attempt to approach the guard on board the train to buy a ticket?

This is actually out of date as there's been a Parkeon TVM located on each platform at Darwen for about 12 months now. Trainline and Virgin Trains (at least) websites have both been updated to reflect this but not National Rail's or, ironically, Northern's even though they manage the station!

 

[Squaddie]

Thank you for your further replies, as far as the guard on the train i didnt notice one, but i did fall asleep half way through the journey. Then i proceeded to go up and pay at the first attended off the train.

But you've admitted that you didn't have enough money on you to pay the correct fare, so it appears to be a very straightforward case of attempted fare avoidance.

How were you planning to get back to Darwen?

 

[tony6499]

If you didn't have enough money to buy your ticket at Manchester then you didn't have enough money to buy your ticket at Darwin unless you had a credit/debit card ?

Could be looking at a prosecution with what you said to the RPI who questioned you.

 

[cuccir]

If you didn't have enough money to buy your ticket at Manchester then you didn't have enough money to buy your ticket at Darwin unless you had a credit/debit card ?

I think it's unreasonable asking passengers to go to Australia to buy their tickets...

 

[snail]

Salford Central does not have ticket barriers

It has an open ticket office and manual ticket barriers in operation Monday-Friday. Given the relative locations of the two stations - they are 1/2 mile apart - I think it's very unlikely that someone would travel from Salford Central to Victoria and exit the station, so it's an easy catch for an RPI at Victoria.

 

[Flamingo]

I think it's unreasonable asking passengers to go to Australia to buy their tickets...

Rules is rules, mate

 

[John1991]

it was a one way fare, wasnt expecting to come back till sunday. and i panicked infront of the guy who questioned me, i just wasnted to get out of there

 

[6Gman]

It has an open ticket office and manual ticket barriers in operation Monday-Friday. Given the relative locations of the two stations - they are 1/2 mile apart - I think it's very unlikely that someone would travel from Salford Central to Victoria and exit the station, so it's an easy catch for an RPI at Victoria.

I've done Salford Central to Victoria a few times (if I'm going to 'clear' my Pacers I'd rather do it on short journeys )

There is almost always someone in the booking office but I've never encountered a ticket check.

 

[John1991]

Hello again guys, it's been a while now, more than the 6 weeks, but I received my letter today, and was wondering if you could guide me with the reply a little bit.

The letter itself from the debt recovery and prosecutions unit says :

"On Friday 19th April 2013 you were spoken to by an authorised member of staff in relation to an alleged contravention of Railway Regulations. An evidential report has been submitted to this office regarding this incident. Before the Company proceeds further with its investigations in respect of this matter, we would like to give you the opportunity of responding with your explanation concerning it. Please complete the bottom section of this letter and if you wish to make any comment, please do so on the reverse. Only written mitigation will be accepted.

As you will appreciate, this is a serious incident; therefore it is imperative that you respond as soon as possible to ascertain the full facts in this matter. Failure to respond to this reasonable request within 14 days of the date of this letter (10th June) will result in legal action being taken (*Regulations of Railway Act and Railway Byelaws apply)

Should legal proceedings be invoked, in addition to any fines imposed by the court there will be an application for a minimum of £100 as a contribution to our costs. Offences of this nature are recordable and should you be convicted you will receive a criminal record."

So far I understand it to be, that I fill out this bottom part name etc, then on the back I write a statement of what happened, and then a covering note on the back explaining, that I firstly apologise for what I have done, and any work caused for the staff and company. Say that it was a one off and a result of lack of detail checking for the money before I board the train, and offer to pay for any costs incurred as a result of this and my unpaid fare.

I've been reading a few posts, but should i mention anything to do with a successful prosecution at this level having an effect on my career?
And also do i mention never to do it again and always pay better attention before boarding the train?

Any further help or comments regarding this i would greatly appreciate

Thanks

John1991

 

[bb21]

You can include all those things you mentioned. Just don't keep rambling on and on. Keep to the point.

Once you have drafted your reply. You can either post the draft here (without personal details) for comment, or if you prefer, ask again if anyone is happy to proof-read and communicate with volunteers via PMs.

 

[John1991]

Thanks for the quick reply bb21, I think it best to post for all to see and make any comments (and hopefully learn from my mistake)

So here is the full draft as it stand so far, I've tried to make sure it's not too long as i need to write it out by hand (why is this?), the only thing i can't figure out at the moment is how to fit in the part about it having a disproportionate (too fancy?) effect on my career following a successful prosecution :

"On Friday 19th April 2013, i boarded the train from darwen to manchester victoria. On arriving in manchester i went up onto the walkway and went to pay. It was only when i got to this point and checking my pockets that i realised i didn't have enough money to pay for my full fare. At this point i asked for a ticket from a salford station which i knew i did at least have the money to pay for.
I apologise for this and for the work caused for both the staff and company regarding the matter. I ensure you that this was a one off situation as i travel to manchester regularly from darwen on weekends and have never forgotten anything before, it is purely down my own lack of attention to detail.
I will pay for the unpaid fare that you are owed, and i will pay all reasonable costs that have been incurred by yourselves in dealing with this matter, and i can only stress that this will never happen again and i shall always pay better attention in future and ensure that i have the money avaialble to pay my fare at the earliest opportunity"

Many thanks, and any further help would be brilliant

John1991

 

[GadgetMan]

At this point i asked for a ticket from a salford station which i knew i did at least have the money to pay for.

I ensure you that this was a one off situation as i travel to manchester regularly from darwen on weekends and have never forgotten anything before,

John1991

One obvious question springs to mind. How did you know that the amount you had on you would cover the fare from Salford? In your own words you mention you travel regularly from Darwen.

 

[185143]

One obvious question springs to mind. How did you know that the amount you had on you would cover the fare from Salford? In your own words you mention you travel regularly from Darwen.

Because he probably knew that the fare from Salford would be a lot less than the fare from Darwen!

 

[John1991]

Well i suppose i didn't, I've caught it from Bolton before and paid under 5 pounds i think, and when he told me the fair to be honest i was shocked cause it was 1.70 or something like that, i had about 3.5 on me at the time i was expecting closer to that range.

john1991

 

[PauloDavesi]

Is it too harsh to be thinking that someone who has deliberately attempted to defraud a transport company is not suited for employment in a role that requires absolute honesty & integrity?

 

[cuccir]

Is it too harsh to be thinking that someone who has deliberately attempted to defraud a transport company is not suited for employment in a role that requires absolute honesty & integrity?

Well it hardly reflects well on him but if we all spent out lives being judged by our worst mistakes then no-one would be suited for anything! Obviously if the OP has done this before then his letter and offer of payment is much less likely to be accepted. In the meantime, let's try and avoid playing the judgmental role shall we?

To the OP: the letter looks good as it is. I don't think the information about the effect on your career is required - prosecutions departments will read many of these letters every week, and everyone has a good personal reason as to why they shouldn't be prosecuted!

 

[John1991]

To the OP: the letter looks good as it is. I don't think the information about the effect on your career is required - prosecutions departments will read many of these letters every week, and everyone has a good personal reason as to why they shouldn't be prosecuted!

Thanks I never thought about it like that

John1991

 

[Greenback]

To the OP: the letter looks good as it is. I don't think the information about the effect on your career is required - prosecutions departments will read many of these letters every week, and everyone has a good personal reason as to why they shouldn't be prosecuted!

I agree. The main thing, which you have done, is to apologise and show remorse, as well as providing a reasonable explanation for what happened.

I would expect Northern to offer a settlement.

 

[John1991]

I agree. The main thing, which you have done, is to apologise and show remorse, as well as providing a reasonable explanation for what happened.

Thanks for the response, I will most likely be writing this up and sending it Monday by recorded delivery ( good idea? ) , obviously its going to be my neatest writing but does that have any sort of impact?

John1991