Help me

[Helpplease]

Hello all, I’m in a little predicament and would appreciate any help.

basicslly I was caught using my sisters 16+ Student Oystercard, i had accidentally picked it up in the morning and didn’t think much of it when I used it on the bus. When ticket inspectors came on I used it and it clearly wasn’t me as I’m older. Anxiety automatically overtook and I didn’t know what to do. I was stupid and just claimed to be her. They asked for me details and I supplied everything as if I was her. As I said anxiety overtook and I got stuck. I then felt like I was going to throw up so I got off the bus early and now have received the offence letter. They asked for proof that I was her which of course I didn’t have so I didn’t supply anything.
What would you suggest to do?
I want to come clean as it’s the right thing to do but I’m scared to death about getting a criminal record as it will affect my future job oppertunites?
Please any help would be appreciated

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

There’s unlikely to be a way out of this without getting a conviction - as I understand it TfL don’t normally agree to settle out of court. But before this worries you too much, there’s some other things that you need to know:

- if TfL prosecute you under their byelaws and you are convicted, then my understanding is that for most purposes this is not recorded: that is, it won’t show up on a DBS check, and you’re not obliged to tell anyone about it. If you are prosecuted and convicted under an Act of Parliament then it will be recorded - but for most purposes I think you won’t have to mention it after a year
- there are some jobs (usually when you’re in a position of trust, so that means things like providing personal care, or being a doctor or nurse, or handling other people’s money, or being a teacher or an accountant or lawyer) where employers are entitled to ask about convictions however long ago they are. But an employer being told about a conviction doesn’t necessarily mean that you won’t get the job. One conviction for something minor (such as using someone else’s Oyster card) suggests that you made a mistake, and not that you’re a criminal mastermind. From what I’ve seen, one mistake won’t bar you. What could get you into trouble is doing the same thing more than once (which would suggest that you hadn’t learnt your lesson) or trying to cover up your conviction (which suggests that it’s more than a mistake and you’re trying to hide things if they’re to your disadvantage - which is not what an employer will want of their staff).

So please try not to see a conviction as the end of the world. It will cost you a fine and court costs, and it will be embarrassing to mention it to employers and so on - but that’s likely to be the worst of it.

So knowing all that, how should you respond to the letter from TfL? I would suggest being honest. Tell them what you have told us - that you made a mistake picking up your sister’s card, and that you won’t do it again - and wait for their response. That response will probably be to take you to court, but you can minimise the stress by co-operating with TfL.

 

[Helpplease]

Thank you Fawkes cat,

do you think I should mention to them that I would prefer to settle out of court and if that is something they can take into consideration?
I feel so silly about all this an appriciate your time.
I’ve seen that solicitors can be used to keep things out of court; would that be a route to take?

apolgies for all the questions

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thank you Fawkes cat,

do you think I should mention to them that I would prefer to settle out of court and if that is something they can take into consideration?

It wouldn’t do any harm to ask, but as I’ve said above I wouldn’t expect it to be successful so don’t get your hopes up.

I’ve seen that solicitors can be used to keep things out of court; would that be a route to take?

It would be a route, but since I don’t expect asking to stay out of court to be successful, I don’t see any point in it.

Although some solicitors will give you an initial free consultation, you will probably have to pay them to try to negotiate an out of court settlement. I’ve already explained why I don’t think you should see a conviction as being the end of the world, but it’s for you to decide how much of a problem a conviction would be for you - I know there are some jobs in the finance sector which see any conviction as a sacking offence. If you have reason to think that any conviction will be a problem for you then you may decide it’s worth paying a solicitor on the off-chance that this might avoid a conviction.

 

[Helpplease]

thanks again, more stressed because we are applying for my husbands visa and I don’t want this to be an issue;

the only thing is that they don’t have any of my details at all, so if I was to get my sister to reply and say for example “I had lost my card” what would be the next steps? This is something I don’t want to do

I was thinking of replying to the letter via email, and then seeing what they reply; again they don’t know who I am so how could they take me to court when they don’t have any details? Unless I give them everything.

sorry for the hassle just in a mind of mess at the moment

 

[Fawkes Cat]

the only thing is that they don’t have any of my details at all, so if I was to get my sister to reply and say for example “I had lost my card” what would be the next steps?

If this was found out, then you and your sister could be charged with perverting the course of justice. That is a much more serious offence than fare-dodging, so the consequences would be much more serious.

This is a forum about railways, so we don't know much about the impact of convictions on visas - and if that falls under the heading of immigration law, the law says that only qualified immigration advisers can give advice. But my suggestion is that you might want to talk about that to the Citizens Advice (https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/): they won't be able to help on the misuse of an Oyster card but they may have something to say on whether you being in trouble will affect your husband.

 

[skyhigh]

thanks again, more stressed because we are applying for my husbands visa and I don’t want this to be an issue;

the only thing is that they don’t have any of my details at all, so if I was to get my sister to reply and say for example “I had lost my card” what would be the next steps? This is something I don’t want to do

I was thinking of replying to the letter via email, and then seeing what they reply; again they don’t know who I am so how could they take me to court when they don’t have any details? Unless I give them everything.

sorry for the hassle just in a mind of mess at the moment

If your sister replied and told them "I lost my pass so I don't know who had it" TfL would probably wonder how the person they stopped knew the full name, address and details of the pass they'd 'found'.

I presume given you say you picked up the pass by mistake you live at the same address- in which case if they checked the electoral roll/other databases they have access to and saw that you were also listed at the address they might have suspicions over who was using the pass...

Best thing to do is reply openly and honestly. Lying or trying to cover your tracks will only make things much worse if you're found out.

 

[JBuchananGB]

In general truth and honesty are best. To avoid making matters any worse you could respond along the lines of:
Dear Sir/Madam
I am responding to your letter of <date> addressed to Miss Y. Miss Y is my sister, and when I was stopped by your Inspector I was the one using her Oyster card. I understand that it was wrong of me to use my sister's card, and then to pretend to be her. I assure you that for all future travel I will ensure that I have the appropriate ticket or pass for my journey. Please take note of this and deal with me to a suitable conclusion of this matter.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

What does the actual letter say?

Not condoning anything but if you stuck to your story what exactly are they alleging has happened?

Again i also believe in being honest etc however I would maybe suggest speaking to a solicitor to get proper legal advice, as you have rights to not self incriminate yourself etc and probably should get appropriate advice on that etc

 

[AlterEgo]

thanks again, more stressed because we are applying for my husbands visa and I don’t want this to be an issue;

the only thing is that they don’t have any of my details at all, so if I was to get my sister to reply and say for example “I had lost my card” what would be the next steps? This is something I don’t want to do

I was thinking of replying to the letter via email, and then seeing what they reply; again they don’t know who I am so how could they take me to court when they don’t have any details? Unless I give them everything.

sorry for the hassle just in a mind of mess at the moment

Could you please upload the letter, removing any personal details?

We need to know exactly what offence they are considering and exactly what they are asking from you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2021 ==

In general truth and honesty are best.

Unwise advice at this stage given the company doesn't even have an idea who the OP is!

OP - do not incriminate yourself. Please upload the letter.

 

[Helpplease]

this is the body of the letter;

you were reported to Transport for London (TfL) for an
offence(s) on the TfL Public Transport Network. The facts of this incident are being
considered and I must advise you that legal proceedings may be taken against you in
accordance with Transport of London's prosecution policy.
In order for TfL to deal with this case correctly, please return the information requested
on the reverse of this letter, by e-mail to lAP@tfl.gov.uk within 10 days, including the
case number stated above. Alternatively, you can send the letter by post.
You do not have to reply to this letter but it may harm your defence if you do not mention
something now which you may later rely on in court. Anything you do provide in writing may
be used in evidence.
Failure to respond to this letter may result in the matter being progressed by Transport for
London without further notification.
If you require further information please go to; https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/prosecutions and see the
Revenue Enforcement and Prosecution Policy.
Transport for London, its subsidiaries and service providers, will use your personal
information for the purposes of administering enforcement activity, including prosecutions,
penalty fares, responding to appeals, and fraud prevention. We may also share your personal
information with London Councils, Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunal Service, relevant Train
Operating Companies, Credit Reference Agencies, Debt Collection Agencies and Court
appointed Bailiffs for these purposes. Your personal information will be properly safeguarded
and processed in accordance with the requirements of privacy and data protection legislation.
In certain circumstances, TfL may also disclose your personal information to the police and
other law enforcement agencies for the purpose of prevention or detection of crime. Further
information on how we use your data can be found at www.tfl.gov.uk/privacy.
Yours sincerely
Investigations Appeals and Prosecutions Team

On the other side
“Last name of person reported”
“Details”

1. If you deny comitting this offence. Please explain why and provide any information.


2. If you accept committing an offence, please provide any exceptional reasons including
pre-existing medical conditions that you may feel are relevant and evidence to support this, as to
why Tf should not proceed with a prosecution.

3.If this is in relation to a ticket irregularity, then if you were unable to produce a pass because you
did not have it with you or if your pass was withdrawn because you were unable to produce a valid
photocard to accompany it, please enclose a photocopy of the pass/photocard with your reply.

 

[AlterEgo]

this is the body of the letter;

you were reported to Transport for London (TfL) for an
offence(s) on the TfL Public Transport Network. The facts of this incident are being
considered and I must advise you that legal proceedings may be taken against you in
accordance with Transport of London's prosecution policy.
In order for TfL to deal with this case correctly, please return the information requested
on the reverse of this letter, by e-mail to lAP@tfl.gov.uk within 10 days, including the
case number stated above. Alternatively, you can send the letter by post.
You do not have to reply to this letter but it may harm your defence if you do not mention
something now which you may later rely on in court. Anything you do provide in writing may
be used in evidence.
Failure to respond to this letter may result in the matter being progressed by Transport for
London without further notification.
If you require further information please go to; https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/prosecutions and see the
Revenue Enforcement and Prosecution Policy.
Transport for London, its subsidiaries and service providers, will use your personal
information for the purposes of administering enforcement activity, including prosecutions,
penalty fares, responding to appeals, and fraud prevention. We may also share your personal
information with London Councils, Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunal Service, relevant Train
Operating Companies, Credit Reference Agencies, Debt Collection Agencies and Court
appointed Bailiffs for these purposes. Your personal information will be properly safeguarded
and processed in accordance with the requirements of privacy and data protection legislation.
In certain circumstances, TfL may also disclose your personal information to the police and
other law enforcement agencies for the purpose of prevention or detection of crime. Further
information on how we use your data can be found at www.tfl.gov.uk/privacy.
Yours sincerely
Investigations Appeals and Prosecutions Team

On the other side
“Last name of person reported”
“Details”

1. If you deny comitting this offence. Please explain why and provide any information.


2. If you accept committing an offence, please provide any exceptional reasons including
pre-existing medical conditions that you may feel are relevant and evidence to support this, as to
why Tf should not proceed with a prosecution.

3.If this is in relation to a ticket irregularity, then if you were unable to produce a pass because you
did not have it with you or if your pass was withdrawn because you were unable to produce a valid
photocard to accompany it, please enclose a photocopy of the pass/photocard with your reply.

Thanks. Does the letter say which offence you (that is, your sister, to whom this is addressed!) is being investigated for? That is, does it state which law was apparently broken?

 

[Helpplease]

This is everything on the letter! Nothing more apart for personal details

 

[AlterEgo]

This is everything on the letter! Nothing more apart for personal details

Your sister needs to reply to this if the letter is addressed to her.

She has not committed an offence.

The company has not even said which offence she is being accused of, so in any case nobody could ever confirm or deny committing "this offence", or any offence because...they haven't said which one they're investigating for or what an offence even entails!

Your sister should reply:

Dear Sir or Madam,

Thank you for your letter of [DATE].

I have not been involved in any incident on any TfL property or transport, and was not stopped by any of your representatives. As such, I have no knowledge of the incident or apparent offence you describe.

I trust this concludes the matter.

Yours faithfully

[NAME]

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Although it is probably in relation to your incident, that letter does not give any details in regards to what the matter is about, does not seem to include any date time or location etc,

It could even be in regards to a completely separate incident your sister hasn't told you about(though that's probably not the case)

If I were the card holder I would be asking for more details on exactly what was being alleged, as your sister also has the right to not incriminate herself also

 

[AlterEgo]

Although it is probably in relation to your incident, that letter does not give any details in regards to what the matter is about, does not seem to include any date time or location etc,

It could even be in regards to a completely separate incident your sister hasn't told you about(though that's probably not the case)

If I were the card holder I would be asking for more details on exactly what was being alleged, as your sister also has the right to not incriminate herself also

Do not ask for further details. This is in itself potentially incriminating.

 

[Helpplease]

thank you all for your inputs!
It does mention the date i was stopped my apologies should of mentioned that, but that is it

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Your sister needs to reply to this if the letter is addressed to her.

She has not committed an offence.

The company has not even said which offence she is being accused of, so in any case nobody could ever confirm or deny committing "this offence", or any offence because...they haven't said which one they're investigating for or what an offence even entails!

Your sister should reply:

Dear Sir or Madam,

Thank you for your letter of [DATE].

I have not been involved in any incident on any TfL property or transport, and was not stopped by any of your representatives. As such, I have no knowledge of the incident or apparent offence you describe.

I trust this concludes the matter.

Yours faithfully

[NAME]

Just as a minor point, since you (the original poster) seem to have mentioned this to your sister, saying that (your sister) has 'no knowledge' isn't strictly true.

So your sister might want to either miss out the bit that I have put in italics, or maybe say something like 'So I have not been involved in the incident or apparent offence you describe' instead.

(As will be obvious from my comments higher up this thread, I'm not entirely happy with this approach but I'm trying to leave my opinion aside here and be constructive.)

 

[AlterEgo]

Just as a minor point, since you (the original poster) seem to have mentioned this to your sister, saying that (your sister) has 'no knowledge' isn't strictly true.

So your sister might want to either miss out the bit that I have put in italics, or maybe say something like 'So I have not been involved in the incident or apparent offence you describe' instead.

(As will be obvious from my comments higher up this thread, I'm not entirely happy with this approach but I'm trying to leave my opinion aside here and be constructive.)

Yes, if the OP has mentioned this to her sister this would be unwise. (I cannot see her mentioning that she has though).

OP, if you have mentioned it to your sister, omit the part @Fawkes Cat bolded and substitute:

"As a result, I expect confirmation you will discontinue your inquiries with me"



Sorry but we are not here to help lazy investigators, who have sent a pointless, fishing letter to someone they actually know didn't commit the offence and wasn't the person stopped! Advice from others wilfully encouraging the OP to respond and voluntarily incriminate themselves going "me me me, you've never heard of me and you don't know my name but it was me! I did it!" ...are...not wise!

 

[Helpplease]

I have not mentioned it to her

however when I called to request a new card for her I mentioned that it was taken from the inspectors, so I guess this adds more mess to the situation. I should of said this at the beginning but totally left my mind

I’m not sure if they note this down when you call or just request another one with no notes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2021 ==

I have not mentioned it to her

however when I called to request a new card for her I mentioned that it was taken from the inspectors, so I guess this adds more mess to the situation. I should of said this at the beginning but totally left my mind

 

[AlterEgo]

I have not mentioned it to her

however when I called to request a new card for her I mentioned that it was taken from the inspectors, so I guess this adds more mess to the situation. I should of said this at the beginning but totally left my mind

I’m not sure if they note this down when you call or just request another one with no notes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2021 ==

I have not mentioned it to her

however when I called to request a new card for her I mentioned that it was taken from the inspectors, so I guess this adds more mess to the situation. I should of said this at the beginning but totally left my mind

And did you give your name on this phone call or state your relationship with your sister? This changes the picture entirely.

 

[Helpplease]

No, I d

And did you give your name on this phone call or state your relationship with your sister? This changes the picture entirely

No I did not give me name or relationship, called as if I was her

 

[AlterEgo]

No, I d

No I did not give me name or relationship, called as if I was her

This is worse!

You should ignore all of my previous advice, because it no longer applies, as the company now believes your sister has knowledge of the incident, which means the company has reason to think your sister could have been complicit in the offence.

Write to the company immediately - do not use the proforma they sent, but instead send it back with a cover letter. TfL will not settle out of court for this sort of wilful fare evasion, so your objective must be to admit you were the person stopped and delay any conviction. Don't admit too much yet - let them write to you properly and address the offences to you directly.

"Dear Sir or Madam,

Thank you for your letter of [DATE].

I am [YOUR NAME], the sister of [SISTER'S NAME] to whom you wrote.

My sister does not have any recollection of the incident and will be unable to help you, because it was me that was stopped, and not her. I apologise for not giving the correct details when I was stopped by the inspector. I would be grateful if you could address any future correspondence to me directly in order for us to deal with the matter at hand.

Yours sincerely,

[YOUR NAME]


You should consult an immigration specialist about the visa issues, as others have suggested.

 

[akm]

thank you all for your inputs!
It does mention the date i was stopped my apologies should of mentioned that, but that is it

I have not mentioned it to her

however when I called to request a new card for her I mentioned that it was taken from the inspectors, so I guess this adds more mess to the situation. I should of said this at the beginning but totally left my mind

I’m not sure if they note this down when you call or just request another one with no notes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2021 ==

I have not mentioned it to her

however when I called to request a new card for her I mentioned that it was taken from the inspectors, so I guess this adds more mess to the situation. I should of said this at the beginning but totally left my mind

Please, help us to help you. When the inspectors took the card (!), what did they say about why they were doing that? Did they give you any written information at the time? And could you upload a scan/photo of the letter (with personal details removed), for the avoidance of further gaps?

 

[Helpplease]

Please, help us to help you. When the inspectors took the card (!), what did they say about why they were doing that? Did they give you any written information at the time? And could you upload a scan/photo of the letter (with personal details removed), for the avoidance of further gaps?

When they took the card they said they are taking it because I can’t prove who I am on the photo. No written information at the time.
And I don’t have it with me however as copied earlier it’s all uploaded the beginning on Monday 6th.. you were reported

 

[furlong]

When in a hole, stop digging. The cover-up is frequently worse than the crime.

 

[AlterEgo]

When in a hole, stop digging. The cover-up is frequently worse than the crime.

Indeed. The OP is certainly in a hole here, and there is now only one way out.

 

[furlong]

I want to come clean as it’s the right thing to do but I’m scared to death about getting a criminal record as it will affect my future job oppertunites?

The longer someone keeps up the lie, the worse it becomes when they are found out. The first line of defence may often be that it's plausible it was accidental which may lead to the lowest level of offence being charged. A slap on the wrist (fine), apology, lesson learned, won't ever happen again. But when a lie is extended the plausibility evaporates and so the charge may be for a more serious offence that alleges dishonesty - that the person knew they were doing wrong. This still leads to a fine and having to pay compensation. There'll also be the question of whether the pattern of usage of the card suggests this might not be the first time this has happened. But if lies persist and are detected it can move up into even more serious categories such as fraud or even perverting the course of justice and then (short) prison sentences can no longer be completely ruled out.

 

[andrew749]

Having worked in fraud detection in another sector, I'm sorry to say I find it difficult to believe that the misuse of the card was accidental or that it was the first time the card was misused. I think the OP needs to assemble evidence of her paid-for journey history up to and since this incident.

 

[Mawkie]

Having worked in fraud detection in another sector, I'm sorry to say I find it difficult to believe that the misuse of the card was accidental or that it was the first time the card was misused. I think the OP needs to assemble evidence of her paid-for journey history up to and since this incident.

I agree. TfL have extensive insights into individual travel habits and will already have interrogated the card history and probably downloaded some corroborating CCTV evidence. The excuse of picking up an oyster card by mistake can only be a one-off, but if that same card has been used for the same journey for x amount of weeks or months... then that casts doubt into the whole story.

It's slightly disturbing that forum members are offering advice on how to circumvent the legal process in order to avoid any potential prosecution.

The only appropriate response to the OP is that they tell the absolute truth and own up to their mistake.