Help me and my son's stupid mistake which blew up.

[Julia Roza]

So my son was travelling from Dartford Station to Chatham Station and from what he's explained was late for a seperate court case(he was a witness) so I suppose researching if he needed a ticket slipped his mind. He was caught without a valid ticket and charged the price of the ticket - £23.

After going back and forth with the penalty party(southeastern?) and trying to explain his side of the story, he kept being dismissed but has shown me proof explaining he did actually say that if his reasons are not approved he will happily pay the £23 penalty. After months of back and forth which did not amount to anywhere, the penalty kept increasing, he explained he was not given the chance to pay the initial fine and does not see why when it was the first action of co-operation he expressed.

I don't know if he could have handled that better and should have just paid initially but whatever, moving on.

Eventually he's been pursued by the court for £135 and has sent a letter pleading guilty seeing no other option.

Now....

He's Received a Notice of Fine and Collection Order. Ticket was initially £20 but he's now been battered with a £400 fine!

Fine - £220,
Comp - £11.70,
Victim Sur -£30,
Costs - £135

Is there a way out of this? I know it's a stupid situation but I don't know how to help him. I don't think he had bad intention of not paying and we're too broke for a hefty fine like this. I personally don't see why after appealing and maintaining full intention of cooperation he should be subject to a 2000% increase as a penalty.

Please help.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He has been convicted by a Court so no, there is no way out of that (unless he was unaware of the proceedings, but it doesn't sound like he was). Best cough up before the Bailiffs get involved.

Sorry that may not be what you want to hear.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm sorry for your predicament and to be the bearer of bad news: There is no way back from this as your son has pleaded guilty to a criminal offence and has been sentenced in the Magistrate's Court.

Had you posted on the forum while still in dispute, there may have been useful advice that could have been given. The legal, court process, has fixed rules and sentencing guidelines. It's almost always better to settle out of court if you are guilty of an offence. Had we seen the exchange before the matter went to court, more may have been done.

The only crumb I can offer is that the your son should be able to approach the court and agree a payment plan for the amount due. Technically, it is due immediately; practically the fines officer will work with you to secure payment over time.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So my son was travelling from Dartford Station to Chatham Station and from what he's explained was late for a seperate court case(he was a witness) so I suppose researching if he needed a ticket slipped his mind. He was caught without a valid ticket and charged the price of the ticket - £23.

That's odd - I can't see any way through which the fare from Dartford to Chatham would reach £23, either through a Penalty Fare of twice the single fare or otherwise. All fares, even returns, except for the season ticket, are less than half that.

After going back and forth with the penalty party(southeastern?) and trying to explain his side of the story, he kept being dismissed but has shown me proof explaining he did actually say that if his reasons are not approved he will happily pay the £23 penalty. After months of back and forth which did not amount to anywhere, the penalty kept increasing, he explained he was not given the chance to pay the initial fine and does not see why when it was the first action of co-operation he expressed.

This is rather unfortunate. Where there is a case of failing to buy a ticket before boarding and you've been caught 'redhanded' (as appears to be the case here), paying a Penalty Fare is often going to be the cheapest and least risky method of disposing of the matter. In which way wasn't he given the chance to pay the initial amount, and do you mean a Penalty Fare? I know it is common parlance to use the term 'fine' for any kind of penalty-like charge, cost, Fare, Notice etc., but it is rather confusing in the context of a Court case, as only a Court can impose a fine, not a private company.

I don't know if he could have handled that better and should have just paid initially but whatever, moving on.

Yes, unfortunately what's been done has been done.

Eventually he's been pursued by the court for £135 and has sent a letter pleading guilty seeing no other option.

If he was prosecuted under the appropriate legislation then, from what you've described, he would indeed be guilty of the offence and therefore pleading guilty was the best choice if it was no longer possible to avoid Court proceedings (e.g. by settling out of Court). The amount of £135 probably refers to Southeastern's costs of bringing the case.

Now....

He's Received a Notice of Fine and Collection Order.

Don't ignore this. The Court has ruled on the case and this must be paid ASAP.

Ticket was initially £20 but he's now been battered with a £400 fine!

It's not a £400 fine - there are various elements to it and the fine is itself £220. But yes, it is true that when such matters proceed to Court it can end up costing a lot more than either buying a ticket before you travel, or paying a Penalty Fare.

Fine - £220,
Comp - £11.70,
Victim Sur -£30,
Costs - £135

Seems a fairly standard breakdown to me for such cases, although, from what you've mentioned, if you say you/your son can't afford this amount, did he give details of his financial means when he plead guilty? If so, £220 is likely to be approximately one week's income. Is this not so?

The compensation in such cases is usually the amount of any outstanding fare(s), so it's odd that they've selected a value of £11.70. That doesn't match up with any of the fares for Dartford to Chatham. It does match up with last year's single fare from Chatham to certain stations within the Southeastern part of the London Zones, e.g. New Eltham, Falconwood and Plumstead. Would there be any particular reason those stations might be involved?

The costs are perhaps a little on the high side but may be justified if there was a more extensive than usual investigation.

Is there a way out of this?

Not really. I don't see any real grounds for appeal from what you've said. The laws are poorly publicised but ultimately there is no excuse for failing to use available ticketing facilities and it's an offence not to do so. Your son is one of several thousand a year who get convicted of that offence.

I know it's a stupid situation but I don't know how to help him. I don't think he had bad intention of not paying

Intention is entirely irrelevant if they have prosecuted under Byelaw 18 of the Railway Byelaws 2005 - this makes it a strict liability to board a train without a valid ticket, where there were ticketing facilities available. It's no different to speeding - you wouldn't say that you didn't intend to speed as a defence!

we're too broke for a hefty fine like this

The Court may accept a reasonable payment plan, e.g. arranging to pay it off over a few months. But ultimately you will have to scrimp and save - non-payment of Court fines can lead to bailiffs being given the power to make forcible entry to your property and taking goods to the value of the fine. In the worst case scenario, committal (to prison) is theoretically possible, but rest assured that it is very unlikely to occur, provided you cooperate to ensure the fine etc. is paid as quickly as possible.

I personally don't see why after appealing and maintaining full intention of cooperation he should be subject to a 2000% increase as a penalty.

A Penalty Fare is a very light way of getting off for a breach of Byelaw 18, so I'm hardly surprised that it's much more expensive if the matter goes to Court. Unfortunately, the fairness of a fine by a Court is neither here nor there in terms of its enforceability. I don't know what grounds your son thought he had to appeal - he was plainly in the wrong, so I'm not sure what he was hoping to achieve. Cooperation or not, it's an offence to board without a ticket.

 

[island]

Now that a court has convicted, there is little that can usefully be done. Your son chose to join a train without a ticket at a station with ticket facilities, which is a criminal offence of which he has been duly convicted. I don’t think “researching if you need a ticket” is a tenable excuse in any case; Dartford station has a ticket office, ticket gates, and a range of posters warning passengers to buy a ticket before travel.

The Penalty Fare of £23 (notwithstanding the amount being slightly higher than what we think it should have been) does not stay on the table indefinitely, and whilst there is an appeals process, once the appeal is refused payment does need to be made. There is not a provision for indefinite “back and forth” as you put it, and that was probably seen as not cooperating.

Fines are due and payable in full on the day they are imposed, and whilst fines officers at court have discretion to arrange a payment plan, it is your son’s responsibility to ask and apply for one, along with verifiable evidence of what amount he can reasonably afford. The amount will not go down and if he sticks his head in the sand again and hopes it will go away, the amount will go up and the case could be passed to bailiffs which could result in goods being seized or time behind bars.

 

[Haywain]

The Penalty Fare of £23 (notwithstanding the amount being slightly higher than what we think it should have been)

The PF of £23 (presumably actually £23.40) ties in with a single fare of £11.70 - was this the fare from stations such as Eltham to Chatham before the January fares increase? It could be that the paid journey would have been from Dartford but that the OP's son had some sort of Travelcard that may have covered part of the intended journey, had another ticket been purchased prior to commencing that journey.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The PF of £23 (presumably actually £23.40) ties in with a single fare of £11.70 - was this the fare from stations such as Eltham to Chatham before the January fares increase? It could be that the paid journey would have been from Dartford but that the OP's son had some sort of Travelcard that may have covered part of the intended journey, had another ticket been purchased prior to commencing that journey.

That's exactly what I meant - it was the fare from nine stations on the Metro Southeastern lines, around the Eltham area, to Chatham. If OP's son only travelled from Dartford, that doesn't make any sense, and indeed appealing it correctly could have led to the matter being dropped as a result. Unfortunately that's not happened and thus what's done is done!

 

[Typhoon]

I don’t think “researching if you need a ticket” is a tenable excuse in any case; Dartford station has a ticket office, ticket gates, and a range of posters warning passengers to buy a ticket before travel.

Not only that but in my experience Dartford is a particularly difficult station to get into and out of without showing a ticket. Could it be that they did not believe that Dartford was not the original station?

Not relevant but if you are unsure of the TOC, it could be Thameslink as well as SouthEastern.

 

[Nick66]

Not only that but in my experience Dartford is a particularly difficult station to get into and out of without showing a ticket.

Indeed. Almost every day when I come through an RPI is in discussion with someone who didn’t realise the importance of something so trivial as a ticket.