Help - Letter received for no ticket and trying to doublegate

[haveagander]

Hi Guys,


on the 30th of November I was on a southern train from lewes to brighton with my 2 mates, after a couple of drinks, we were all looking to get a group saver from the conductor on the train as you cannot access this deal through a machine at the station, however there wasn't a conductor present.

At Brighton station under the influence I tried to double up with someone rather than find someone to buy a ticket( I had enough money) as my friend put the idea in my head.

unfortunately I got caught and had no problem with giving the guy my details as I knew exactly what i was doing and was willing to accept the fine.

However yesterday I received a letter from southern rail with intention to prosecute, I was hoping there was a way that I could settle this ordeal out-of-court and pay a fine of some sort.

Could you guys help me in any way? Or shine some light on my situation

 

[Greenback]

Southern undoubtedly think they have sufficient evidence to make an example of you in court.

However, if you reply to their letter with a sincere apology and an offer to settle the matter out of court, providing you have not come to their notice before on a ticketing matter they may look favourably on your offer. There are no guarantees, though, and it may help if you express remorse and promise not to be so stupid ever again.

It is normally in the TOC's financial interest to avoid court, as they will not receive the fine imposed by a court. However, they do sometimes decide that the deterrent effect will save them more revenue in the long run, particularly if they have caught someone who has previously been caught without a ticket.

You certainly have nothing to lose by offering to settle with them.

 

[haveagander]

Thank you for the reply,

I'm afraid that I have been given a fixed penalty notice for not having a ticket on the train but I paid the fine promptly,


I intend to write a letter grovelling and promising it will not happen again, and be willing to pay any admin fees that have occurred.


Will this mean that I definitely will go to court as it's a 2nd offence?

or will the letter hopefully be enough?

 

[tony6499]

All trains between Lewes and Brighton have Conductors plus there is the ticket office at Lewes as well for you to have bought a ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hi Guys,



unfortunately I got caught and had no problem with giving the guy my details as I knew exactly what i was doing and was willing to accept the fine.

However yesterday I received a letter from southern rail with intention to prosecute, I was hoping there was a way that I could settle this ordeal out-of-court and pay a fine of some sort.

Could you guys help me in any way? Or shine some light on my situation

By fine if you mean Penalty Fare that is for an honest mistake in not having a ticket not a blatant attempt to defraud Southern.

 

[haveagander]

All trains between Lewes and Brighton have Conductors plus there is the ticket office at Lewes as well for you to have bought a ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


By fine if you mean Penalty Fare that is for an honest mistake in not having a ticket not a blatant attempt to defraud Southern.

This was at 10:30 in the evening so the ticket office was closed,

I panicked as I didn't know if the conductor would/ wouldn't let me through without incurring a fine

 

[bb21]

Can you clarify whether it was a Penalty Fare last time? Was it for 20 pounds? There is no such thing as a Fixed Penalty Notice. Did they take any details last time?

 

[haveagander]

Can you clarify whether it was a Penalty Fare last time? Was it for 20 pounds? There is no such thing as a Fixed Penalty Notice. Did they take any details last time?

It was a penalty fare for 20 pounds and my details were given

 

[tony6499]

If it is the second offence then you obviously didn't learn the lesson so I wouldn't be surprised if this one ends up in court, there is a considerable problem with people at that time of night doing that sort of thing which is why they have plain clothes RPI's there to catch people.

I'd imagine this will cost you a lot of money.

 

[haveagander]

If it is the second offence then you obviously didn't learn the lesson so I wouldn't be surprised if this one ends up in court, there is a considerable problem with people at that time of night doing that sort of thing which is why they have plain clothes RPI's there to catch people.

I'd imagine this will cost you a lot of money.

how much are you thinking?

 

[bb21]

If this is your second time then I am inclined to agree that you may well end up in court.

They may be persuaded by a large offer to keep it out of court, however there is a line to be drawn somewhere obviously. A few hundred pounds is probably what you will be looking at should they agree to give you another chance.

Should they give you another chance, you must understand that this is almost certain to be your last chance. Another similar incident and you will need to prepare for a court appearance and probably a criminal record.

 

[haveagander]

If this is your second time then I am inclined to agree that you may well end up in court.

They may be persuaded by a large offer to keep it out of court, however there is a line to be drawn somewhere obviously. A few hundred pounds is probably what you will be looking at should they agree to give you another chance.

Should they give you another chance, you must understand that this is almost certain to be your last chance. Another similar incident and you will need to prepare for a court appearance and probably a criminal record.

fantastic thank you very much for the feedback

 

[Greenback]

There is no possible way we can second guess the outcome, but it is certain that if your details are already flagged up within the company there will be a higher chance of court action.

But all you can do is to wait and see what happens.

 

[haveagander]

There is no possible way we can second guess the outcome, but it is certain that if your details are already flagged up within the company there will be a higher chance of court action.

But all you can do is to wait and see what happens.

if they do take court action will it just be a heavy fine?

I don't imagine they'd do anything more severe just for a silly error of judgement like this....

 

[bb21]

if they do take court action will it just be a heavy fine?

I don't imagine they'd do anything more severe just for a silly error of judgement like this....

Doublegating could be interpreted as an intention to avoid paying the correct fare. (Why else would you do it?) That means it can well be a Section 5(3a) offence. Should you be prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act then a successful conviction will carry a criminal record, in addition to a fine.

Of course that is not the only thing they can prosecute you under. They could use the lesser Railway Byelaws which should not carry a criminal record on conviction.

There is nothing we can say unfortunately at this stage what they intend to do. It will depend on whether they think they have strong enough evidence and whether they would consider a large out-of-court settlement more beneficial (not just financially).

Are they asking you to reply to their letter giving your account of the event?

 

[haveagander]

Doublegating could be interpreted as an intention to avoid paying the correct fare. (Why else would you do it?) That means it can well be a Section 5(3a) offence. Should you be prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act then a successful conviction will carry a criminal record, in addition to a fine.

Of course that is not the only thing they can prosecute you under. They could use the lesser Railway Byelaws which should not carry a criminal record on conviction.

There is nothing we can say unfortunately at this stage what they intend to do. It will depend on whether they think they have strong enough evidence and whether they would consider a large out-of-court settlement more beneficial (not just financially).

Are they asking you to reply to their letter giving your account of the event?

Yes they are asking me to do so, what do you think would be the best reply in order to keep this out of court?

 

[Greenback]

You will need to apologise for the trouble you have caused and not even attempt to justify your actiosn in double gating. Offer to meet their costs including any fares owed. Then apologise again, and give an assurance that you now understand how seriously these matters can be and that you have learnt your lesson and won't do it again.

Once sent, all you can do is wait, and hope that either they decide not to prosecute.

 

[Paule23]

I'd just like to say how refreshing it is to have someone on here who is not continually trying to justify there actions, or taking issue with the TOC for having the temerity to identify them fare dodging. Haveagander is genuinely seeking help and accepting the advice given, which seems to be a rare commodity on this site (accepting advice not giving it). Only time will tell if he has learnt his lesson this time but I commend his attitude on this site.

 

[haveagander]

Got a reply from southern railway today saying that they considered my letter and are now issuing me with a £80 fine , thanks guys for the suggestions.

 

[bb21]

Glad for you, but make sure you are more careful in the future. Even if it doesn't land you in court, it will become much more expensive each time.

 

[sarahj]

Next time you guys want a group ticket, take a quick peek before you board and look for the conductor. If its a 313 (the older square train with no toilets) 9 times out of 10 (late at night) we will be at the back, and 99% of the time, with the sliding door open to where we are. On the other electric units we will be around the middle where the big lav is. On late night services into Brighton we spend a lot of our time selling group tickets to those heading out for the night. We just stay where we are and they troop up. Just come up and ask.

(just a note, when you spot the conductor, jump on and walk through the train to them, dont do what some do and run down the platform, delaying departure.)