Help - left without payment (forgot to buy a ticket)

[andy31566]

Could someone please advise me on this.

Traveled from home to Manchester Picc today, and completely forgot to buy a ticket - mind on auto-pilot regarding work.

My local station is unmanned, no ticket guy on the train.

I was on a different train to usual which came in to platform 13 (not the usual platform 4).

Anyway, came up the stairs followed the signs for the lift (exit to Fairfield Street). Got out of the lift and was stopped by a revenue inspector - that when i realised i had no ticket.

I offered to go back in a buy one but he said it was too late as i had left the station.

Seems i'll be getting a letter from Northern Rail in a few weeks.

What's the likely outcome here?

 

[Ferret]

Have you 'forgotten to buy a ticket' before? If not, then I suppose this will be another one of Northern's fixed penalty notices for £80 plus the fare due.

 

[andy31566]

No i always buy a ticket, i do this journey 3 times a week and have for 4 years, and have the receipts to prove it.

I was just half asleep and had someone asked earlier i would have gotten a ticket

 

[Urban Gateline]

No i always buy a ticket, i do this journey 3 times a week and have for 4 years, and have the receipts to prove it.

I was just half asleep and had someone asked earlier i would have gotten a ticket

Did you walk past an open ticket office on the way out of the station before the inspector stopped you? As you say you offered to go "back in" so it sounds like you chose to ignore the ticket office to pay your ticket from.

 

[Harlesden]

As a fellow passenger, my suggestion is to promptly pay the amount requested by the TOC as your "completely forgot" would not sound very convincing in court.

 

[Monty]

As Ferret has previously mentioned it is most probable that you may receive 'fixed penalty notice' for £80 (plus fare owed) that Northern like to issued nowadays. Nowever you'll need to wait until you hear from them first, my advice would be to just pay it and chalk it up to experience.

A word of warning though, and it all depends how the inspector words his report you may be facing a charge under Section 5 3a of the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889 (ie fare evasion) which if convicted does carry a criminal record. They argument for such an accusation will be you passed the last point to purchase at ticket without buying one and had the inspector not been there you would have left the station and the fare would have remained unpaid.

 

[andy31566]

I didn't pass an open ticket booth, nor were there any staff asking to see or sell tickets in either station, nor on the train. If there were i would have bought one.

It was a genuine mistake, i am so used to always having a ticket that i was genuinely shocked when i got stopped - i must have turned purple with embarrassment.

The revenue guard said he wasn't going to 'caution' me and he wrote down everything i said.

 

[jb]

However, note that you may face the possibility of a RoRA charge yet still be allowed to close the case for a £80 plus fare penalty.

As you have described events, the fixed penalty would be an outcome you should accept in a heartbeat if given the opportunity.

 

[trickyvegas]

I didn't pass an open ticket booth, nor were there any staff asking to see or sell tickets in either station, nor on the train. If there were i would have bought one.

There is a TVM to the right as you are exiting the corridor from Platform 13, which I would imagine Northern could argue as being the opportunity to buy.

 

[silencio]

Oh just for reference also, i've learned due to my current case that regardless of the day or time you travelled (e.g. Off peak) they will charge you the standard fare (on top of the FPN) i.e. A peak ticket cost.

 

[andy31566]

Just been back to the station to scope it out, the TVM is beyond the top of the stairs and after the entrance to the small waiting area/cafe where the lift to street level is located behind the coffee stall.

Still, my cock-up, should be more alert in the mornings and not so stressed about the day ahead

 

[maniacmartin]

A TVM at the destination station would not have been able to sell you the correct ticket anyway (except Southern Railway TVMs).

 

[185]

Anyway, came up the stairs followed the signs for the lift (exit to Fairfield Street). Got out of the lift and was stopped by a revenue inspector - that when i realised i had no ticket.

Hang on, outside that lift, ie on the street, is public non-railway land.... I noticed them there a few weeks ago, it's normally the place for staff from all TOCs to smoke.

BTP seemed convinced an assault there some time ago was quote "not on railway land", and was a GMP issue.

Are the RPIs going to be stood in aisle 4 of my local Aldi soon because the holy byelaws said so?

 

[156441]

The bottom of the lift comes out into network rail property (Albeit for about 6 foot).

 

[bb21]

There is a TVM to the right as you are exiting the corridor from Platform 13, which I would imagine Northern could argue as being the opportunity to buy.

That would not be an opportunity to pay, as a ticket in the reverse direction is not valid for the journey in question.

Oh just for reference also, i've learned due to my current case that regardless of the day or time you travelled (e.g. Off peak) they will charge you the standard fare (on top of the FPN) i.e. A peak ticket cost.

If you passed an opportunity to pay then you are not entitled to any discounts or discounted fares. You are liable for the full fare, usually the Anytime (Day) Single/Return.

Hang on, outside that lift, ie on the street, is public non-railway land.... I noticed them there a few weeks ago, it's normally the place for staff from all TOCs to smoke.

BTP seemed convinced an assault there some time ago was quote "not on railway land", and was a GMP issue.

Are the RPIs going to be stood in aisle 4 of my local Aldi soon because the holy byelaws said so?

Surely that is still Network Rail property as he is still on the premises?

In addition, exiting via the Fairfield Street exit may be construed as an attempt to avoid paying the correct fare, as the ticket office is clearly not in that direction.

 

[andy31566]

I went out via the lift as i had a bicycle. Can't use escalators and it's a pain to carry down stairs. The guy i was chatting to (a fellow cyclists) pointed my in that direction. Like i say i don't ever use Platform 13.

My route to work is along Fairfield Street and i usually exit (with a ticket) via the lifts from the main foyer and out via the taxi rank.

 

[bb21]

I went out via the lift as i had a bicycle. Can't use escalators and it's a pain to carry down stairs. The guy i was chatting to (a fellow cyclists) pointed my in that direction. Like i say i don't ever use Platform 13.

My route to work is along Fairfield Street and i usually exit (with a ticket) via the lifts from the main foyer and out via the taxi rank.

When it gets to court (if it ever gets that far), it is your actions that will be interpreted and inferences drawn from them to decide whether there was "intent" to avoid payment.

The ticket office is in the other direction so if you had intention to pay the correct fare, you would be heading towards the ticket office and not the station exit.

Of course I have no reason to doubt that you made a genuine error and was in auto-pilot that morning, however it is not what I or others on here think that is important. I am merely outlining how a court might interpret your actions.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Could someone please advise me on this.

Traveled from home to Manchester Picc today, and completely forgot to buy a ticket - mind on auto-pilot regarding work.

My local station is unmanned, no ticket guy on the train.

The obvious question that any good inspector should have asked doesn't seem to have been asked or the answer otherwise given in this thread so far as I can see.

Where was 'home'? (which station)

You say 'my local station is unmanned', but does it have a self-service machine of any kind?

 

[andy31566]

My home station Goostrey does not have a ticket machine

 

[Rich McLean]

Got a question relating to this. If an "Unmanned" station has a card only TVM and you only had cash on you to pay for the fare, if you had no further opertunity (i.e. guard busy attending to other duties) and you got stopped at your detination while attempting to purchase a ticket by cash at the gateline, would they still beable to report you for having travelled without a valid ticket and attempt to avoid the fare?

 

[6Gman]

My home station Goostrey does not have a ticket machine

How do you normally obtain your ticket?

 

[andy31566]

Buy it on the train from the guard, but there was no guard, and this wasn't my normal train it was an earlier service.

 

[island]

Buy it on the train from the guard, but there was no guard, and this wasn't my normal train it was an earlier service.

All trains serving Manchester Pic have a guard.

 

[185]

That 0722 off Crewe is notoriously full, but there's no way by Goostrey it's unworkable yet. Probably a case of Northern pushing train punctuality over revenue (ie stay in the back, keep the train on time).

 

[andy31566]

That 0722 off Crewe is notoriously full, but there's no way by Goostrey it's unworkable yet. Probably a case of Northern pushing train punctuality over revenue (ie stay in the back, keep the train on time).

Yes it was packed, I got up and stood by the doors from Stockport onwards as I didn't think I would be able to extract the bike from the rack as there must have been 15 people standing at that end of the train.

The train looked like 2 joined together, I was right at the front of the front half.

 

[156441]

It's two 142s and we're not allowed to work the front set.
That said passengers know the guard is always in the back two carriages and continue to try and dodge the fare by going into the front set.

 

[furlong]

What would/should someone in your position have done if you hadn't been stopped on leaving the station, but then later in the day realised you'd forgotten to buy your ticket?

 

[sarahj]

If you travel 3-4 times a week,and it seems in peak times, might be worth getting a season ticket, then no issues.

 

[Tibbs]

What would/should someone in your position have done if you hadn't been stopped on leaving the station, but then later in the day realised you'd forgotten to buy your ticket?

An oft used meme, but relevant here:

 

[furlong]

An oft used meme

I would think this is a Frequently Asked Question that should perhaps be tackled by the fares and ticketing guide the forum looks to be developing. Maybe I should break it out into a new thread to discuss the implications/variations on the situation, unless forum regulars remember previous threads that already cover this adequately.