Help- Intention to Prosecute

[elle_nad]

I recently bought a ticket from London Victoria to Preston Park station and used my young persons railcard.
After getting off the train the inspectors asked to see my ticket and my railcard. After burning the card the expiry date came up as having expired in March 2011. I had no idea that it would expire or when it would expire as there was nothing on the railcard to tell me it would!! apparently the date had rubbed off. i have been abroad for the past 2years and had no idea of expiration and it did not even cross my mind to check.
I was offered to pay a penalty fare but i had no money to pay, i was also offered to pay half the fare on the spot, then either dispute it later or pay the remaining money. i didnt have the money to pay for that ever.
i have now recieved a letter with Intention to Prosecute and the chance to say what happened from my point of view.

Please can i have some advice as to what i should do... i really dont want to have to go to court, and i have no money to pay any fines and court fees etc. i feel this is very unfair, i obviously was not trying to get out of paying as i had paid for my ticket and had what i thought was a valid railcard. it is their fault really for allowing the expiry date to rub off!

should i reply stating this and hope they let me off? like i said i have been overseas so its not like ive been using this expired railcard the whole time. or should i try and settle out of court? even then i have no money to pay for fines.

what happens if i completely ignore the letter? i dont actually have a home at the moment, ive been travelling and am now staying with my cousin, the letter was sent to his house. could i claim not to have recieved the letter? how will they find me if i choose to ignore it?

any advice much appreciated!!
thank you in advance

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Don't ignore a proposal to recover a cost from you (or a request for information in consideration of a prosecution) without being prepared for the consequences.
If you continue to ignore it, and are prosecuted in your absence, and found Guilty in your absence and then you fail to pay the Fine, what do you think will happen to the information? It won't just fade away - it will be a record against you for life.

Its a shame that so many chances to resolve this have already been allowed to pass by. The chance to renew that Railcard, the chance to pay a Penalty Fare, the chance to pay half the fare when questioned. To consider letting this opportunty to settle your debt as well looks very much like a pattern to me, of someone who doesn't like to pay their debts! I strongly advise writing back with a full offer to pay all costs and fares and an apology for having caused so much trouble. Whatever you say, you will probably incriminate yourself further by admitting that you have used the expired Railcard previously, and so the debt is higher than just the fare for that one journey. You could perhaps demonstrate how wrong anyone would be by thinking you are a habitual avoider of debts by providing a copy of the replacement Railcard you bought immediately after being informed that your old one had expired. (You did buy a new one immediately, didn't you? Or were you no longer young enough to qualify?).

It does seem odd that you would have thought the card didn't expire when the words "valid until" wouldn't have worn off. I wonder if any of the Railway staff believed that you could honestly have thought that it didn't expire. Did you actually say that?

As for not having any money, the only sensible advice to someone who can't afford to pay for their travel is not to travel. You'd better start to earn something soon so that you can pay your debts and put the whole matter behind you.

It's also surprising that you find any of this unfair. It seems that the staff who you've spoken to so far have been much more willing to assist you that they needed to be.

 

[RJ]

elle_nad, welcome to the forum.

I understand why you may have felt it was unfair for you to be charged any extra on top of what you had already paid. However, you're required to produce a railcard that clearly displays all details on it. The ticket inspector could have turned a blind eye, but they had just as much right to take steps to ensure that the correct fare was eventually paid. The additional punishment of being subject to prosecution is naturally a by-product of travelling without enough money to pay for an appropriate ticket.

There are two specific clauses which are commonly used to prosecute travel without a valid ticket.

One requires proof of intent to avoid paying the fare. Section 5.3 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

The other only requires the passenger's failure to present a valid ticket. Section 18 of The Railway Byelaws.

Southern could quite easily prosecute under the latter, because a railcard discounted ticket without a valid railcard is not a valid ticket. They could also prosecute under the former, because you had no reason to believe that the railcard was in date. It's not uncommon for people to find novel ways of obscuring the expiry date of a railcard.

If you ignore the letter, Southern can proceed with court action. The court case will proceed whether or not you are present. If you don't enter a plea, by default you will be found guilty.

If you would prefer to avoid going to court, you could try offering Southern an out of court settlement to cover their costs and the price of the ticket you should have paid for. They're not obliged to accept, but given the information you have provided, it's your only realistic chance of avoiding prosecution.

 

[GadgetMan]

Ignoring the letter is not an option as this will not just go away. If you don't respond then it will come back to bite you at a later date.

I appreciate that fading railcards can be a problem, but when you bought the railcard there is no reason I can think of that would give the impression that the railcard does NOT expire. It's made very clear that the railcard price at the station is for 1 year only. I appreciate faded railcards is a problem and for that reason I personally show discretion if I come across a passenger travelling on a 'recently' expired and faded railcard. However circa 12 months or more out of date is well beyond the boundary of discretion being shown.

You were offered the softer option of a penalty fare on the day but refused (were unable) to pay the fare due as a bare mimimum which is why you're now being pursued.

Your options are to try and reach an out of court settlement by communicating with the train company (or its representative), offer to pay the fare and any reasonable costs they have incurred chasing you up and avoid court.

Or face a more than likely higher financial penalty and possible criminal record by going to court and either pleading guilty or being found guilty. You could try and use the faded railcard as a reason for pleading not guilty but in my opinion it won't wash as you could've approached a ticket office/member of staff to have the expiry date clarified before traveling on it with a discounted ticket.

 

[elle_nad]

Thank you all for your advice and help. by the sounds of it my best chance is to request an out of court settlement. to do this, do i still need to reply to the letter i received?
who do i make the out of court settlement request to? first capital connect or southern railway?

 

[RJ]

Thank you all for your advice and help. by the sounds of it my best chance is to request an out of court settlement. to do this, do i still need to reply to the letter i received?
who do i make the out of court settlement request to? first capital connect or southern railway?

It will be whoever sent you the letter. There should be an address on there. The idea is that you offer them enough money to make it worth their while to call off the court action. I'd suggest sending them a cheque, along with a letter apologising for the transgression and promising not to do it again.

Was it an FCC or Southern inspector that stopped you?

 

[island]

As above, don't ignore it and don't bother going down the road of blaming the railway for anything, least of all allowing the expiry date to rub off. The expiry date will have been visible when you purchased the railcard.

 

[elle_nad]

As above, don't ignore it and don't bother going down the road of blaming the railway for anything, least of all allowing the expiry date to rub off. The expiry date will have been visible when you purchased the railcard.

i know that but my point is i have been overseas for the last two years and it simply didn't cross my mind to check the expiry date. i didnt even look at the railcard i just knew i had one and so used it. would this be valid in court?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It will be whoever sent you the letter. There should be an address on there. The idea is that you offer them enough money to make it worth their while to call off the court action. I'd suggest sending them a cheque, along with a letter apologising for the transgression and promising not to do it again.

Was it an FCC or Southern inspector that stopped you?

i don't know who it was that stopped me. the letter is from first capital connect, and the letter specifically says not to enclose any money.

also, if this goes to court and i am found guilty, do i have the option of choosing my punishment? this may sound silly but i am not so worried about a criminal record as i don't actually live in the UK, i am here temporarily and have dual passports. i am more concerned about paying the fine as i say i really have no money. i am happy to do community service.

 

[castra]

i don't know who it was that stopped me. the letter is from first capital connect, and the letter specifically says not to enclose any money.

If the letter is from FCC then they would have been FCC inspectors.

Do you remember what colour the train was by chance? Green = Southern. Blue = FCC.

 

[MikeWh]

i know that but my point is i have been overseas for the last two years and it simply didn't cross my mind to check the expiry date. i didnt even look at the railcard i just knew i had one and so used it. would this be valid in court?

Quite simply, no!

i don't know who it was that stopped me. the letter is from first capital connect, and the letter specifically says not to enclose any money.

In that case you should reply to the letter with an honest account of what happened and a sincere apology for making the mistake which you now understand was very wrong. Express a desire to settle the matter with the minimum of further trouble to them or you. Assuming that this is your first transgression on the railways then it is likely (but not guaranteed) that they will request an amount. Pay that and it will be closed.

also, if this goes to court and i am found guilty, do i have the option of choosing my punishment? this may sound silly but i am not so worried about a criminal record as i don't actually live in the UK, i am here temporarily and have dual passports. i am more concerned about paying the fine as i say i really have no money. i am happy to do community service.

Can you guarantee that you'll never want to live here again? I can see the logic behind what you're saying, but really it is a further symptom of not accepting responsibility for making this mistake. If they offer you an out of court settlement then it will be considerably less than anything that a court might impose. You certainly wouldn't only get a criminal record.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the letter is from FCC then they would have been FCC inspectors.

Do you remember what colour the train was by chance? Green = Southern. Blue = FCC.

Given that FCC use several Southern units this isn't really any useful guide. If it came from Victoria then it was Southern, but, it doesn't matter which train was used, FCC and Southern operate similar penalty fares schemes and can take action against each others customers at stations where they both run services.

 

[Chapeltom]

i know that but my point is i have been overseas for the last two years and it simply didn't cross my mind to check the expiry date. i didnt even look at the railcard i just knew i had one and so used it. would this be valid in court?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


i don't know who it was that stopped me. the letter is from first capital connect, and the letter specifically says not to enclose any money.

also, if this goes to court and i am found guilty, do i have the option of choosing my punishment? this may sound silly but i am not so worried about a criminal record as i don't actually live in the UK, i am here temporarily and have dual passports. i am more concerned about paying the fine as i say i really have no money. i am happy to do community service.

Its pretty much always a fine, if you prosecuted under the RoRA and not the bye laws it is likely to be higher fine.

I think the fact you are unconcerned about a criminal record IS concerning. You realise the implications of a criminal record, it could affect your future travels and will almost certainly affect you on a return to the UK. I would take this seriously, if you read other posts from people prosecuted by FCC, posters are almost always recommended to offer an out of court settlement.

Unfortunately with regards to the railcard, ignorance of an expiry date is not an excuse.

 

[oversteer]

Assuming you are not from the USA, and that you may want to travel there one day, would you still be able to get a visa if you get a criminal record in the UK ?

 

[elle_nad]

Assuming you are not from the USA, and that you may want to travel there one day, would you still be able to get a visa if you get a criminal record in the UK ?

i don't know. okay so criminal record will try to be avoided. unfortunately i'm not so educated on the implications of one.
unbelievable that i could get a criminal record for making such a simple and honest mistake!!

 

[island]

Probably. Look up the definition of "crime involving moral turpitude".

 

[Harlesden]

I cannot imagine any court would accept your explanation "I didn't know it would expire or when it would expire" as anything other than a pathetic excuse.
Surely you perused the terms of issue/validity of the railcard before making the decision to purchase it.
The fact that you have been abroad for two years seems irrelevant and could actually make things worse as it will be hard to accept the fact that you thought a railcard renewable annually could possibly still be valid after two years abroad

 

[bnm]

unbelievable that i could get a criminal record for making such a simple and honest mistake!!

Many 'simple and honest' mistakes can lead to a criminal record. In all walks of life. Travelling with an invalid railcard, and therefore having not paid the correct fare, is but one.

 

[Ferret]

I cannot imagine any court would accept your explanation "I didn't know it would expire or when it would expire" as anything other than a pathetic excuse.
Surely you perused the terms of issue/validity of the railcard before making the decision to purchase it.
The fact that you have been abroad for two years seems irrelevant and could actually make things worse as it will be hard to accept the fact that you thought a railcard renewable annually could possibly still be valid after two years abroad

Agree completely. That could actually demonstrate intent to avoid the correct fare, which of course can lead to a section 5 RoR Act prosecution and a criminal record at the end of proceedings, not to mention a hefty fine.

 

[bb21]

Normally I don't do this but I will be really abrupt here seeing that your attitude stinks.

I had no idea that it would expire or when it would expire as there was nothing on the railcard to tell me it would!!

So the phrase "Valid Until" on the face of the Railcard is for decoration purposes?

i feel this is very unfair

Please explain how it is unfair.

it is their fault really for allowing the expiry date to rub off!

Again, explain how.

 

[elle_nad]

Thank you for insight.

Last of all,

I would have been happy to pay the penalty fare then and there but i had no means to do so. At the time i only had £10 on me so couldnt even pay thehalf fare and dispute it later. Shouldn't i have the opportunity to pay the fare before being prosecuted?? What do you think the response would be if i ask to do this?

 

[DarloRich]

Thank you for insight.

Last of all,

I would have been happy to pay the penalty fare then and there but i had no means to do so. At the time i only had £10 on me so couldnt even pay thehalf fare and dispute it later. Shouldn't i have the opportunity to pay the fare before being prosecuted?? What do you think the response would be if i ask to do this?

they will laugh and submit the paperwork to court.

 

[mrbond009]

The best is to right a letter of apology and request them you are ready to settle the matter out of court and you are ready to pay the cost of the ticket, any fines or any administration charges. Keep the copy of the letter and send as a registered post. Please wait for the reply and follow according to ...But do not ignore the letter as it might lead to serious convictions in the near future...

 

[Monty]

I can't really add any more to what has already been said other than try and arrange an out of court settlement. Don't try to argue the rights or wrongs of what happened or if you felt it was unfair. Just apologise and hope they are willing to settle, ignore any correspondence from FCC at your peril.

 

[trentside]

I cannot imagine any court would accept your explanation "I didn't know it would expire or when it would expire" as anything other than a pathetic excuse.
Surely you perused the terms of issue/validity of the railcard before making the decision to purchase it.
The fact that you have been abroad for two years seems irrelevant and could actually make things worse as it will be hard to accept the fact that you thought a railcard renewable annually could possibly still be valid after two years abroad

Not only that, providing it was a station issued railcard (which if it faded, it almost certainly was) you are given a receipt to allow replacement which has the railcard number and expiry date on it. While this will likely be gone after two years, it's another place the expiry date was shown.

Like others have said - saying you didn't know about the expiry date will not help your case. Attempting to use a faded railcard once it has expired is a common trick and one most staff are likely to be very vigilant of.

 

[6Gman]

Thank you for insight.

Last of all,

I would have been happy to pay the penalty fare then and there but i had no means to do so. At the time i only had £10 on me so couldnt even pay thehalf fare and dispute it later. Shouldn't i have the opportunity to pay the fare before being prosecuted?? What do you think the response would be if i ask to do this?

You travel from London to Brighton with only £10 on you? Taking a risk aren't you?

 

[MikeWh]

You travel from London to Brighton with only £10 on you? Taking a risk aren't you?

I'm sorry, but these sort of statements make my blood boil.

If the OP thought that they had a valid ticket then an additional £10 may well be all they might need for small unexpected expenditure. Obviously with hindsight they might have had more, but they weren't expecting to encounter any problems.

If I've bought an advance ticket from London to Edinburgh, am I supposed to have £152 on me in case I should fall foul of some regulation and be charged an anytime single? Whilst I often will have the means to pay any amount on a credit card, there are occasions when I deliberately take no more than absolutely necessary, usually when travelling to a football match.

 

[yorkie]

I would have been happy to pay the penalty fare then and there but i had no means to do so. At the time i only had £10 on me so couldnt even pay thehalf fare and dispute it later. Shouldn't i have the opportunity to pay the fare before being prosecuted?? What do you think the response would be if i ask to do this?

It is not true that you "should" have the opportunity to pay the fare before being prosecuted if the inspector has evidence to believe you were deliberately avoiding the correct fare.

However it is true that it would normally be the case that you would be invited to pay the fare and that would be the end of the matter. In this case, the full Anytime Day Single fare is £24.80, and that is the amount that would need to be paid. However if an Authorised Collector asks you to pay a Penalty Fare, then that can cause the amount to double, however in that case you need only pay the £24.80 immediately to settle the fare, and the remaining £24.80 could be settled within the stated time period.

If you have no means to pay the fare, then one of the options open to them is indeed to prosecute, and that is the option they appear to be minded to take at this stage.

 

[Flamingo]

Normally I don't do this but I will be really abrupt here seeing that your attitude stinks.

No, it's about average...

 

[34D]

How old were you on the date of the offence?

When your railcard was originally purchased (or perhaps given to you free, as part of some deal) it will have been for a validity period of 1, 3 or 5 years. Even though it is called "16-25 railcard" it does NOT have a validity period of 9 years.

I would suggest that you be prepared to pay an out-of-court settlement of possibly a few hundred pounds, or if found guilty by the Magistrates then a fine & costs of possibly several hundred pounds.

Do note the point above about difficulties entering the US, though.

 

[Ferret]

I'm sorry, but these sort of statements make my blood boil.

If the OP thought that they had a valid ticket then an additional £10 may well be all they might need for small unexpected expenditure. Obviously with hindsight they might have had more, but they weren't expecting to encounter any problems.

If I've bought an advance ticket from London to Edinburgh, am I supposed to have £152 on me in case I should fall foul of some regulation and be charged an anytime single? Whilst I often will have the means to pay any amount on a credit card, there are occasions when I deliberately take no more than absolutely necessary, usually when travelling to a football match.

Hmmmmm, I think the point 6G was making was that only having a tenner on you in case something unexpected happens is a risk. I don't think his point had anything to do with the validity or otherwise of any rail tickets held.

 

[snail]

If I've bought an advance ticket from London to Edinburgh, am I supposed to have £152 on me in case I should fall foul of some regulation and be charged an anytime single?

What happens if you lose your ticket? I know many people - particularly students - don't have a lot of spare cash but why not at least carry a debit card and risk going over the overdraft limit if it's an emergency?