HELP! Intent to dodge fare

[Tom.Barker]

Hi everyone, I found this forum online whilst researching what happened to me.

Here's what happened:
- I took a train and bought a ticket into Exeter (Sowton and Digby). I had a few fdrinks in the centre with friends and we saw a train left st. David's in an hour. We decided to walk down and go to a pub near the station.
- afterwards I walked down to central and used the bathroom (the ticket barriers were open). I only intended to use the bathroom and then cut through to make my walk shorter to Exeter
- I observed a lady who appeared to be struggling with the machine and assumed it was out of order. I only intended to use the bathroom and then planned to walk down to St. Davids and catch the train form there back to my own stop (I had a valid return ticket from St. James Park, Exeter to Sowton and Digby)
- Anyway a train arrived which was destined for St. David's s so we decided to get on- noticing no one to purchase a ticket from we thought we could buy on the train
- arriving at St. David's the ticket barriers were down and there were guards on the platform
- stupidly, and i still don't know why now, my friend passed me back his travel card after he'd been through and i tried to use it to get through
- i had intended to purchase a ticket via the fast track and needed to come back through the same station
- the rail investigator took me aside and cautioned me and interviewed me. I'm not sure what he cautioned me, i.e. a bi-law or official act
- He wrote my responses down and I said I didn't want to sign it - as i don't know what the act is and if it's a legally binding statement. i think he documented this. i also told him i had a couple of drinks earlier
- About 30 minutes later after repeatedly telling him that I had the intention ot pay and could i pay him now. He refused. I wasn't offered to be fined the £20
- i think he said i tried to dodge the fare with intent
- I explained about the train and my observation that something was wrong with the ticket machine. He said he had no reports that it wasn't working.
- i fully acknowledge what i did was wrong but this is my first time doing it
- i only recently moved into my new house (under 2 weeks ago) and when he tried to verify my address he said it wasn't real. I brought out my phone and looked at the text form my landlord - i had the house number and name correct but the street name was wrong. I think it was another house i recently looked at. He accused me of trying to give him false information. I had a few drink and my memory wasn't the best.
- anyway, after reading online about going to court and getting a criminal conviction, i am terrified! i plan to move to America and start a family out there shortly. Having a criminal record would severely impact on my career as well, I wonder if I might lose my job. I feel so stupid and mortified.
- Now I can't sleep and I'm so worried
- After he said I could go he told his colleague to issue me 0 fare ticket to which i declined and said i had every intention to pay for my ticket and he walked me around the fast track machine and i bought a single to from exeter to st. james's park - where my other ticket was valid from

i can't think of anything else to add to this.

Could someone advise me what are my options and what could happen. My friend was also cautioned I think but he didn't particularly want to talk about it. He had his season ticket confiscated. I know I should of bought a ticket and i certainly won't make the same mistake again.

Thanks everyone and look forward to getting some advice.

 

[bb21]

I think I am getting a little confused.

Where were you going back to? If you were going back to either St James's Park or Digby and at Central, why did you go to St Davids? Every train from St Davids to either St James's Park or Digby stops at Central so it makes no sense whatsoever to go all the way to St Davids then back.

 

[Tom.Barker]

I don't know if it is relevant but it is a 1.30£ ticket and 2 minute journey between Exeter Central and St. David's where I travelled without a ticket.

 

[Tom.Barker]

I think I am getting a little confused.

Where were you going back to? If you were going back to either St James's Park or Digby and at Central, why did you go to St Davids? Every train from St Davids to either St James's Park or Digby stops at Central so it makes no sense whatsoever to go all the way to St Davids then back.

Hi,

The train was an hours wait away. We decided to go to St. David's because there is a bar near there. I planned to buy my ticket and have a hot chocolate before getting the train back. It was a time killing exercise more than anything.

 

[district]

If he mentioned that he believes you had intent to avoid paying the fare, and you were cautioned, then you are being reported for prosecution under the Regulations of Railways Act. A conviction means a criminal record.

There is very little you can do until the letter from the train operator comes through the post, so try not to worry until then. (Easier said then done, I know). After then you may be able to persuade the train operator to settle out of court by offering them compensation and paying their costs. Members of this forum may be willing to proof read letters before you send them.

Rail UK has a Fares FAQ, which I don't think you can read until you have 5 posts, although an administrator may decide to give you access to it early. In either case, you may find Section 10 useful.

- About 30 minutes later after repeatedly telling him that I had the intention ot pay and could i pay him now. He refused. I wasn't offered to be fined the £20

This 'fine' is a penalty fare, which should not be used where there is any suspicion that the person has intended to defraud the railway by not paying for a ticket. A penalty fare is for people who make genuine mistakes.

By the way, I do not think that the fact that it was a £1.50 fare is relevant.

 

[Tom.Barker]

If he mentioned that he believes you had intent to avoid paying the fare, and you were cautioned, then you are being reported for prosecution under the Regulations of Railways Act. A conviction means a criminal record.

There is very little you can do until the letter from the train operator comes through the post, so try not to worry until then. (Easier said then done, I know). After then you may be able to persuade the train operator to settle out of court by offering them compensation and paying their costs. Members of this forum may be willing to proof read letters before you send them.

Rail UK has a Fares FAQ, which I don't think you can read until you have 5 posts, although an administrator may decide to give you access to it early. In either case, you may find Section 10 useful.

This 'fine' is a penalty fare, which should not be used where there is any suspicion that the person has intended to defraud the railway by not paying for a ticket. A penalty fare is for people who make genuine mistakes.

By the way, I do not think that the fact that it was a £1.50 fare is irrelevant.

Hi District,

Thanks for posting back to me. It's just such a rubbish situation to be in. Do you know if they are usually happy to settle outside of court? can't access section 10 unfortunately but I will try again when I have more posts.

As for keeping it out of my mind, I feel my entire future my be at risk. It all feels so uncertain at the moment.

I appreciate you writing me back.

 

[bb21]

Hi,

The train was an hours wait away. We decided to go to St. David's because there is a bar near there. I planned to buy my ticket and have a hot chocolate before getting the train back. It was a time killing exercise more than anything.

Fair enough, however I am not surprised that the RPI was of the opinion that you intended to avoid paying the correct fare, as almost everything you did pointed him in that direction.

- I observed a lady who appeared to be struggling with the machine and assumed it was out of order. I only intended to use the bathroom and then planned to walk down to St. Davids and catch the train form there back to my own stop (I had a valid return ticket from St. James Park, Exeter to Sowton and Digby)

Not really relevant any more given that you boarded a train without a ticket, when facilities existed at the origin station. The Railway Byelaws requires you to purchase a ticket before boarding, where facilities exist. (Of course if the ticket machine was genuinely broken and there was nowhere to purchase your ticket, you could board and buy from the guard or at the destination.)

- - Anyway a train arrived which was destined for St. David's s so we decided to get on- noticing no one to purchase a ticket from we thought we could buy on the train

The problem here is that you assumed the ticket machine had broken down. Some people struggle with using a ticket machine, just like almost anything else in life. This indicates to me (and therefore the RPI) that you made no effort to purchase a ticket, hence breaking the Byelaws.

- arriving at St. David's the ticket barriers were down and there were guards on the platform
- stupidly, and i still don't know why now, my friend passed me back his travel card after he'd been through and i tried to use it to get through

Now this is much more serious, as you are into the territory of the Regulation of Railways Act, as your intent to avoid paying the correct fare can pretty much be demonstrated by using a ticket that did not belong to you. Why else would someone do it? (I am not accusing you however you must be able to see it from the angle I am cutting into your incident. This is likely to be the view of the RPI and the magistrate should it get to that stage.)

A conviction under the RoRA carries a criminal record while one under the Byelaws should not.

- i had intended to purchase a ticket via the fast track and needed to come back through the same station

That's not what your behaviour suggests unfortunately.

- the rail investigator took me aside and cautioned me and interviewed me. I'm not sure what he cautioned me, i.e. a bi-law or official act

Under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE). This allows the RPI to gather anything you say to him as evidence and this could then be admitted in court if needed.

- He wrote my responses down and I said I didn't want to sign it - as i don't know what the act is and if it's a legally binding statement. i think he documented this. i also told him i had a couple of drinks earlier

Doesn't make any difference unfortunately, otherwise the legal system will be in disarray.

- About 30 minutes later after repeatedly telling him that I had the intention ot pay and could i pay him now. He refused. I wasn't offered to be fined the £20

I don't blame him. The £20 Penalty Fare is for someone who makes a mistake. You might have only made a mistake and it is not your intention to avoid paying your fare, however that is not what your behaviour suggested. The offer of a Penalty Fare is discretionary. The train company does not have to offer it if they suspect fare evasion. Fare evasion should be prosecuted. Unfortunately your behaviour led the RPI to believe that you were a fare-evader.

- i think he said i tried to dodge the fare with intent

Makes sense to me.

- I explained about the train and my observation that something was wrong with the ticket machine. He said he had no reports that it wasn't working.

The problem is that you don't know for sure that the ticket machine was out-of-order, because you never tried to find out.

In addition, if you intended to pay your fare and couldn't, surely you would have approached the RPI upon arrival at St Davids to pay rather than attempting to get through the gate with someone else's ticket.

- i fully acknowledge what i did was wrong but this is my first time doing it
- i only recently moved into my new house (under 2 weeks ago) and when he tried to verify my address he said it wasn't real. I brought out my phone and looked at the text form my landlord - i had the house number and name correct but the street name was wrong. I think it was another house i recently looked at. He accused me of trying to give him false information. I had a few drink and my memory wasn't the best.

Does not help your case at all. Providing a false address is a Section 5(3c) offence under the Regulation of Railways Act. This coupled with strong evidence of a Section 5(3a) offence just made everything much worse for yourself.

Normally allowances could be made if someone made a simple mistake with regard to their address because he/she only moved in recently, I don't think in your case it would be looked on by the train company in a favourable light.

- anyway, after reading online about going to court and getting a criminal conviction, i am terrified! i plan to move to America and start a family out there shortly. Having a criminal record would severely impact on my career as well, I wonder if I might lose my job. I feel so stupid and mortified.
- Now I can't sleep and I'm so worried
- After he said I could go he told his colleague to issue me 0 fare ticket to which i declined and said i had every intention to pay for my ticket and he walked me around the fast track machine and i bought a single to from exeter to st. james's park - where my other ticket was valid from

Doesn't make any difference now that you have been caught. It is the correct procedure that you are issued a free ticket to enable you to complete your journey in these circumstances. Of course the cost of the journey will still have to be recovered afterwards.

i can't think of anything else to add to this.

Could someone advise me what are my options and what could happen. My friend was also cautioned I think but he didn't particularly want to talk about it. He had his season ticket confiscated. I know I should of bought a ticket and i certainly won't make the same mistake again.

Thanks everyone and look forward to getting some advice.

I think you need to just calm down now. Whatever damage that has been done is done. There is not very much you can do until you receive the letter from FGW, and that can take up to six weeks.

What you need to do now is write down exactly what happened on a piece of paper while your memory is still fresh. What you did and what conversation took place between you and the RPI. The last thing you want is inconsistency and giving them more ammunition than what they already have.

Potential solutions include possible out-of-court settlements however you need to be aware that they are not obliged to accept it, if they feel that they have a particularly stonewall conviction that can be secured.

Your friend's season ticket is rightly withdrawn as he gave permission for it to be used fraudulently.

I'm sorry it is not what you want to hear. I really cannot think of anything else you could have done on the day to make the situation worse.

 

[Tom.Barker]

Thanks for your response. It's just so unfortunate it happened. I will definitely plead for an out of court settlement.

 

[bb21]

It might be worth having a look through the other threads in this area. You will probably be looking at a much higher figure than some of those quoted as you are in a much worse position than the majority of others seeking help, nevertheless they should give you an idea how the system works.

 

[Tom.Barker]

It might be worth having a look through the other threads in this area. You will probably be looking at a much higher figure than some of those quoted as you are in a much worse position than the majority of others seeking help, nevertheless they should give you an idea how the system works.

I've had a really extensive look and I couldn't find anyone who has been in a similar situation. If you're aware of something similar I'd really appreciate a link / signposting to it.

I've written the accounts of what happened down now. Just still can't believe I'm in this situation. I'm a real stickler for rules. I don't suppose it would help by evidencing previous ticket purchases. Do you think it will be in my favour that I haven't been involved in anything like this before?

Thank you.

 

[yorkie]

I found this confusing to read.

It's a shame you didn't buy a ticket through to Exeter St Davids, as that would have been valid for the journey you made (with a "break of journey" at Central) and is the same fare. It took me a little while to work out the fares, because I was struggling to find Sowton & Digby station - I had to Google it to discover it's Digby & Sowton [[stn]DIG[/stn]].

As for saying "I had intention to pay" that contradicts the actions taken, unfortunately.

intention ot pay and could i pay him now. He refused. I wasn't offered to be fined the £20

You are thinking of a Penalty Fare, more details are available in our Guide (which you can now access) if you want to know more, but basically that's a higher than normal fare charged when passengers make a mistake under certain circumstances. It isn't applicable to this particular situation though. Edit: I also notice District has answered this already, and what he says is correct.

i think he said i tried to dodge the fare with intent

It sounds like they are considering prosecuting you under the Regulation of Railways Act.

I've had a really extensive look and I couldn't find anyone who has been in a similar situation. If you're aware of something similar I'd really appreciate a link / signposting to it.

There are definitely similar cases, although not many of them involve giving an incorrect address as well, and many of them are with different Train Companies who may react differently. Each situation is unique of course. But the general advice often still applies.

If you are struggling to use our own search function (which I admit is a bit limited), you could try Google specifying site:railforums.co.uk to restrict the result to this forum.

You also shouldn't take any action at this stage - wait for FGW to write to you.

Do you know if they are usually happy to settle outside of court?.

I don't think we can answer the question of "usually", as we wouldn't have access to any statistics. However I am aware of cases of FGW settling out of court, and in cases that are arguably more 'serious' than yours, but it may depend on how busy they are, what evidence they have, and various other factors. The benefit to FGW is that they get all the money. If it went to Court, and they won the case, they would only be awarded costs. The fine would not go to FGW. So, it's certainly a possibility.

 

[RPI]

You say you travelled from Exeter Central and the Ticket machine wasnt working? there are 3 Ticket Vending Machines (TVM's) at Exeter Central, 2 in the main concourse and one at the New North Road entrance, best you can hope for is an out of court settlement. Was your friend also stopped and interviewed as from what you say here they have committed an offence also.

 

[Southwest]

First off, let me say that I am sure the OP is of impeccible character.

Having read the thread it reads to me ( and I'm sure it will to a lot of others) as though it was intentional and not accidental.

stupidly, and i still don't know why now, my friend passed me back his travel card after he'd been through and i tried to use it to get through

This is what does you no favours.

'Tough love' advice here, man up and take whatever's coming to you. I'll bet you won't do it again!

Good luck mate.

 

[Nick W]

Forget fare evasion for now. Even if the machine wasn't working, both the OP and OP's friend have violated Byelaw 21:

21. Unauthorised buying or selling of tickets
(1) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall sell or buy any ticket.
(2) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall transfer or receive any unused or
partly used ticket, intending that any person shall use it for travelling unless
the conditions of use for the ticket specifically permit such transfer.
(3) Subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall knowingly use any ticket which has
been obtained in breach of Byelaw 21.
(4) The sale or transfer by, or the purchase or receipt from, an authorised person
in the course of his duties or from an authorised ticket machine is excepted
from the provisions of Byelaw 21.

 

[Tom.Barker]

Hi everyone, thanks for your replies. Just wanted to feedback the outcome... I got a 91£ fine- which I will pay and that is the end of it. I will let you know outcome for my friend too.

Pleased with it as I will not get a criminal record!

 

[Nick W]

Thanks for letting us know the outcome!

Can you clarify? Is that an offer from the train company to settle for £91? If so, it's not a fine and won't result in a criminal record.

 

[Tom.Barker]

Thanks for letting us know the outcome!

Can you clarify? Is that an offer from the train company to settle for £91? If so, it's not a fine and won't result in a criminal record.

Hi Nick,

Yes, I rang them to clarify what the letter said. If I pay the £91 fine for costs they've incurred to this point (I think that's what the letter said) then I will not have a criminal record. Alternatively they said I could go to a magistrates court.

Obviously very pleased that they are allowing me to settle outside of court. Won't make the same error again!

 

[455driver]

Remember that your name is now "in the system" and any further issues will result in a trip to court, worth bearing in mind.

 

[soil]

Remember that your name is now "in the system" and any further issues will result in a trip to court, worth bearing in mind.

That sounds like wishful thinking to me.

 

[Tom.Barker]

Hi Nick,

Yes, I rang them to clarify what the letter said. If I pay the £91 fine for costs they've incurred to this point (I think that's what the letter said) then I will not have a criminal record. Alternatively they said I could go to a magistrates court.

Obviously very pleased that they are allowing me to settle outside of court. Won't make the same error again!

friend 60£ fine

 

[455driver]

That sounds like wishful thinking to me.

No, I am glad this has had a sensible outcome, everyone deserves a chance (well nearly everyone) and it was just a heads up for the OP, I think he has been very lucky indeed.

 

[Tibbs]

friend 60£ fine

Did he get his season ticket back?

 

[Tom.Barker]

Did he get his season ticket back?

It expired in 3 days. He didn't bother trying to get it back- he said he bought a weeks pass from the self-service machine and then renewed his season pass.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, I am glad this has had a sensible outcome, everyone deserves a chance (well nearly everyone) and it was just a heads up for the OP, I think he has been very lucky indeed.

I feel very lucky. Lesson learnt.