Help/info needed for prosecution over failed Oyster top up

[FLINT97]

Hi,

I am being prosecututed by National Rail for failing to have funds on my Oyster card.

An inspector asked for my Oyster card when coming off the train and to my suprise I had no funds on it.

The previous day, I had bought a weekly 1&2 travel card from a newsagents that was to be put on my card.

Before they could do this, I was told I had £3 outstanding to clear. I cleared this, then paid with my debit card,

for the weekly travelcard.

So when I was told by the inspector I had no funds I was shocked, but thought olk I have my receipt.

I showed them this but was told it was not the correct one. You need two which I did not have;

the one I had was for the visa charge. I told him that a mistake must have been made at the shop,

as I had the exact price for the 1&2 on my receipt. He said this could be for anything!

I asked him how much does a weekly 1&2 cost, and he claimed he didn't know!

I said you really don't know how much a weekly costs and you are an inspector!?

He really was being as awkward as possible.


To cut a long story short, he wanted me to pay an on the spot fine which I did not have

the money for as I was on income support, and the travel card I paid for was a lot as is, at the time,

and he insisted I intended to travel without paying when I had a receipt that showed that

I had paid, but not the exactly correct one, and I did not intend to do so.

The shop that made the mistake, put the funds back on my card when I went back I showed them my

receipt and apologised;


But now I am being prosecuted for this, as when they writ to me to get my view, I explained the situation,

sent them my visa receipt but they still want to go ahead.


So, do I risk a criminal record? Can I get the shop to write a statement on my behalf?

On the summons form it says if I plead guilty it will cost me around £160.00!


It seems so unfair when it was the shop that made the mistake not me.



What is the best course of action, as I cannot afford a lawyer, and I have never been to

court before and don't really have the money to pay the fine as I am on income support again.


Do I have no chance?


Thanks,


Paul
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, I forgot to mention I had a 23456 Travelcard as well. Obviously, that didn't cover me for my whole journey, but my Oyster was for the zone 1
part of the journey, and this is where my problems began.


Thanks,


Paul

 

[bb21]

Welcome, Paul. A few questions just to clarify a few things.

Firstly you cannot be prosecuted by National Rail. Do you mean Southern, FCC, SouthEastern, South West Trains or one of the other train companies? What was your journey?

What time was it and how much PAYG credit did you have on your card? Did you touch in at your origin station?

If you were not given an actual Oyster receipt then there is a possibility that the corner shop may have done a dodgy transaction. This is not unheard of either, so you may wish to report them to Transport for London too.

 

[FLINT97]

Hi bb21,

sorry yes, I am being prosecuted by First Capital Connect.

My journey was from Denmark Hill to Kentish Town, then change to Kentish Town underground on towards Highgate on the Northern Line.

I was stopped at Kentish Town before going on to the underground.

This was around 9.30am. I had a zone one & two weekly travelcard put on my Oyster.

With this, there is no need to touch in/Out unless you need to open barriers.
I was told my funds were zero.

I went back to the shop on the day this happened, showed them my visa receipt,

and they acknowledged the error and put the correct one week travelcard on the Oyster.


I did get annoyed with them at the time, which of course i feel hasn't helped my case.

When I had the chance to explain my side of what happened I apologised for my

bad language.


The law/byelaw is no. 18(1) made under Section 219 of the Transport act 2000.


Hope this helps to explain a bit more clearly.


Thanks,


Paul

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I am also suspicious that the transaction in the shop was never intended to be as honest as you might have hoped. Perhaps you still have the evidence to show that a card payment was taken on one day but that it wasn't until your visit the next day that they agreed to actually pay the credit onto your Oyster Card?

Now, if that is true, and you can provide the evidence, I'm sorry to say that it still doesn't authorise you to travel without adequate payment on your card (even though you had good reason to believe that you had). However, I would have suspected that when you replied to the letter (from whichever Company it is) asking you for your version of the circumstances and if this is the first time that you have been detected travelling without a valid ticket, then the Company would have accepted an offer of a payment of the correct fare (which i guess you still haven't paid) and your evidence of a possibly fraudulent shop worker. This is a wide-scale problem in the Oyster area where large numbers of small amounts are extracted from unwitting passengers by appointed agents.

Its disspointing that they have not accepted your evidence, but as I said above, it doesn't technically permit you to travel.

Now, if we really can be positive that this was a rogue trader, beyond all doubt, then I would propose contacting the Company's prosecutions manager offering to settle this matter by a small administrative payment to cover their costs, and repeating your offer to provide more information about the suspected fraudulent shop worker. I would add that if they feel unwilling to accept your offer, then you will instructing your solicitor to Defend the claim, with all the additional time that will take in gathering Witnesses and Statements when all that will happen is that you provide your receipt and Oyster travel record to show that you traveled in good faith, and that if the Court did find you Guilty, then your solictor would plea so much mitigation that there is little prospect of them even recovering their costs.

But if we are clutching at straws about the shop worker, and you probably would have been caught out sometime or other, somewhere or other, then I would just try to minimise the damage by offering to settle with the minimum of work for the Company. How this will pan out will depend on the actual Company - they have different policies and attitudes towards suspected fare evaders.

Will the shop write a letter of explanation and apology?

 

[maniacmartin]

Ask the newsagent covers the any of the TOC's administrative costs as it was their mistake (if it even was a mistake) that caused the situation.

Why did you buy a Zone 1-2 Travelcard and a 2-6 Travelcard on paper for the same period of time? That sounds like an odd thing to do.

 

[FLINT97]

Hi DaveNewcastle,

I have the visa transaction receipt for the top up for on that day, but I wasn't given the other receipt. This was where my problems began. The visa charge was the exact figure for a weekly 1&2 travel card. The shop owner has since indicated that most probably they will sign a statement to say it was they're error.

I have received a letter asking for my version of the circumstances from First Capital Connect a few weeks ago, and I sent them my receipt and also my 23456 weekly travel card I had, but they have already written to me saying they are going to prosecute regardless.

The law/byelaw on the summons is no. 18(1) made under Section 219 of the Transport act 2000.

Will a signed letter from the shop owner help? I feel I am being treated
extremely harshly, when I have shown I did not intend to travel without paying.
I had a 23456 travel card on the start of my journey (which was in zone 2 Denmark Hill)
and some evidence of paying for an Oyster top up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi maniacmartin,

I was given a 23456 card by the Dole office from the help back to work scheme, but they wouldn't pay out for a zone 1 card, so I had to pay for that from my JSA. The new job I was travelling to was passing through Zone 1,
so I needed that too.

 

[pethadine82]

I would get a signed witness statement from the shop and enclose this to FCC.
Write a letter and also send a cheque for payment for the fare that you should have paid.
If still no luck let it go to court, and defend yourself

No judge would rule in the favour of FCC, if what you say is true.
One other thing though, how did you get through the ticket barrier BEFORE the journey started as that would have rejected entry?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Interesting post there pethadine82.
You are correct in anticipating that a Byelaw Prosecution brought by FCC stands a good chance of failing, but that failure is by no means guaranteed, and some skill will be required if FLINT97 is to represent themself in Court. The outcome will depend on the Evidence and the Law, and how one is tested against the other - we havn't seen FLINT97's evidence, and in fact we're making an assumption that one crucial admission from the shop will be forthcoming and in good time, and that the prosecution will accept it on face value without any opportunity to test it under cross-examination. (I wouldn't).

I have the visa transaction receipt for the top up for on that day, but I wasn't given the other receipt. This was where my problems began. The visa charge was the exact figure for a weekly 1&2 travel card. The shop owner has since indicated that most probably they will sign a statement to say it was they're error.

That is not adequately persuasive.

Will a signed letter from the shop owner help? I feel I am being treated extremely harshly, when I have shown I did not intend to travel without paying.

Let your feelings about 'harshness' fall to one side. The prosecution is about facts, facts which are not concerned with your intention. The fact is that you failed to produce a valid ticket.

It will take more than a signed letter from the shop. pethedine82 suggests a signed witness statement which might be a little more helpful, but a statement plus an appearance in Court to give oral evidence and to be cross-examined will be far more persuasive. But please remember the point here - it is a matter of fact that you have committed the Offence of failing to produce a valid ticket (and there's nothing you can do about that), what you can do is to demonstrate, with evidence, that you had understandable and legitimate reason to understand that you were travelling with a valid ticket.
The only hurdle remaining will be when you answer pethadine82's question about how you mananged to enter the Oyster area at the start of the journey, but I am sure that as you've told us that this is all this is the fault of the shop worker, that your explanation for your entry into the Oyster area has been acknowledged and agreed by FCC already (otherwise we wouldn't be discussing the shop).

 

[MikeWh]

One other thing though, how did you get through the ticket barrier BEFORE the journey started as that would have rejected entry?

Easy! they started in zone 2 which is covered by both tickets.

Can the zone 2-6 travelcard be loaded onto the Oyster? If it can then all you need to add is £2.20* credit for each journey through zone 1. That is much cheaper than a zone 1-2 travelcard if you only make ten journeys a week. You must touch in and out either side of zone 1 or you will be travelling without a validated card in zone1.

* It should be £2.10 for most journeys, but starting at Denmark Hill is one of the places that might result in an extra 10p being deducted.

 

[FLINT97]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the information. I have just spoken to FCC, and they have adjourned the case. I will have to write to them again, with the signed letter from the shop and all other evidence I have. I guess I will have to be very apologetic in this letter and maybe have a character statement from somebody who knows me in the community?

Hopefully I can get this sorted.

Also, I got through Denmark Hill as the barriers were not working as they are going through a big facelift! I also could of used my 23456 but had no need to at the time.


Paul

 

[bb21]

I don't think a character statement is necessary if you can get a signed witness statement from the shop.

 

[maniacmartin]

If you want to use the shop's letter to place the blame with them, then I wouldn't be too apologetic, as it an apology usually involves accepting a portion of blame.