Help....Duplicate Rail ticket used on bus

[kent]

As i found my original train annual ticket, I gave my duplicate to my husband to return back to the train station. He was found using this in the bus whilst I was with him......so the tfl guys were very rude to us and accused us of fraud and didnt even want to listen to us. I have already raised the complaint to TFL formally and have offered to pay any fine...

Im v stressed what they will do to us? We are due to go travelling?

Will prosecution lead to a fine? or jail?

I have never committed any offense before.....

 

[GadgetMan]

the tfl guys were very rude to us and accused us of fraud and didnt even want to listen to us.

I'm wiling to listen......... What possible explanation can you give to contradict the allegation of Fraud?

 

[soil]

As i found my original train annual ticket, I gave my duplicate to my husband to return back to the train station. He was found using this in the bus whilst I was with him......so the tfl guys were very rude to us and accused us of fraud and didnt even want to listen to us. I have already raised the complaint to TFL formally and have offered to pay any fine...

??? You raised a complaint to TFL?

Why would you do that?

Surely, having committed fraud, you would keep quiet and not complain?

Have you received a letter from them?

Not too clever using two identical tickets on the same bus, was it?

 

[telstarbox]

If your husband was taking your ticket back to the station then presumably he would have another ticket anyway to travel around London, so why would he have needed to use yours? Did you tell him why you had given him your ticket? It doesn't look good at all...

 

[yorkie]

As i found my original train annual ticket, I gave my duplicate to my husband to return back to the train station. He was found using this in the bus whilst I was with him......

Ah, well he was not entitled to use that ticket. He must have known that, surely?

so the tfl guys were very rude to us and accused us of fraud and didnt even want to listen to us. I have already raised the complaint to TFL formally and have offered to pay any fine...

What is there to listen to? You've not offered an explanation other than an admission of guilt.

Im v stressed what they will do to us?

Probably prosecution.

We are due to go travelling?

Sorry I don't understand the question.

Will prosecution lead to a fine?

If found guilty, yes.

or jail?

I have never committed any offence before.....

In that case no, not jail.

 

[Clip]

Not sure if serious. You surely are aware that no one else is allowed to use your ticket so why do it?

Enjoy your fine from the prosecution after you admitted doing just that. Oh and if you go travelling be aware that should you not pay the fine they may go back to court to take out a CCJ against you for none payment IIRC and you wont be here to defend that either.

 

[Monty]

As i found my original train annual ticket, I gave my duplicate to my husband to return back to the train station. He was found using this in the bus whilst I was with him......

Not much to add from Yorkie's post however I am somewhat puzzled by this, if you found your previously lost season why did you give your husband your duplicate? Thats your responsibility to return it surely?

Why did your husband not have a valid ticket when challenged by the inspectors? Why did he present your duplicate? Why had he not returned per your wishes (allegedly) and was using it for travel?

I can believe you gave your husband the ticket with the best of intentions, however at the very least it's seems he was trying to be clever by not having to buy an additional ticket for travel using your duplicate, at worst you knew about it.

so the tfl guys were very rude to us and accused us of fraud and didnt even want to listen to us.

How were they rude may I ask? Did they swear at you? Make obscene gestures? Or did they perhaps put it to you and your husband in a neutral tone that you were using the duplicate to avoid paying the fared owed? I hate to say it but the Inspector's were doing the job they are employed for and it's not always pretty.

Will prosecution lead to a fine? or jail?

If prosecuted under RoRA 1889 you will most certainly receive a fine plus a criminal record and yes the maximum sentence for ticket fraud/fare evasion can result in a custodial sentence. However I can safely say in your situation this is highly unlikely.

My advice? If they offer to settle out of court do so and try not make a foolish mistake in the future.

 

[michael769]

so the tfl guys were very rude to us and accused us of fraud and didnt even want to listen to us.

I can assure you that they will have listened very carefully to everything you said- something you may discover when what you said is presented as evidence by the prosecution when you are tried.

 

[tony_mac]

Enjoy your fine from the prosecution....

I don't think we really need quite so much unpleasantness about it.

They may prosecute, they may also be prepared to settle out of court for a first offence, you will know a little more when you receive a letter about it, there isn't much you can do until then.

A criminal record is certainly a possibility, although jail is not. (It is theoretically possible, but it doesn't happen for minor offences like this - even some of the most serious frauds don't get actual jail time, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2184883/Middle-class-train-fare-fraudsters-created-fake-class-monthly-season-tickets-car-park-passes-worth-2-000.html)

If they prosecute, and you (or he) is found guilty, then this could be a nuisance for entering certain countries. In many cases it will at least mean you have to apply in advance for a visa.

 

[Ferret]

I don't think we really need quite so much unpleasantness about it.

They may prosecute, they may also be prepared to settle out of court for a first offence, you will know a little more when you receive a letter about it, there isn't much you can do until then.

A criminal record is certainly a possibility, although jail is not. (It is theoretically possible, but it doesn't happen for minor offences like this - even some of the most serious frauds don't get actual jail time, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2184883/Middle-class-train-fare-fraudsters-created-fake-class-monthly-season-tickets-car-park-passes-worth-2-000.html)

If they prosecute, and you (or he) is found guilty, then this could be a nuisance for entering certain countries. In many cases it will at least mean you have to apply in advance for a visa.

I'd say that there is no chance of a settlement out of Court now that a complaint has been made about the inspectors. A cast iron way of ensuring you get prosecuted having been caught out. It's a simple prosecution, and I have to say that to counter the 'he didn't want to listen to us' allegation - well, there's very little you could say having been caught so blatantly evading the fare.

I'm afraid you'll be taking some very painful medicine, and there probably isn't much way of avoiding that now.

 

[island]

TfL is known to have no sense of humour about fare dodging on buses. I think the most favourable outcome possible here is that only your husband gets prosecuted. More likely you both do.

 

[talltim]

Not condoning it, but while the husband's guilt is pretty obvious, presumably the court would have to have proof that she knew about him using the ticket to convict her?

 

[rdwarr]

Not condoning it, but while the husband's guilt is pretty obvious, presumably the court would have to have proof that she knew about him using the ticket to convict her?

Sounds quite reasonable and would certainly seem to be a line of defence for the OP. However, given the posts above, I imagine she's not coming back to give us the full story.

 

[michael769]

Not condoning it, but while the husband's guilt is pretty obvious, presumably the court would have to have proof that she knew about him using the ticket to convict her?

Depends what was said in the heat of the moment to the inspectors. People's ability to self incriminate themselves in such situations might surprise you!

 

[wellhouse]

Not condoning it, but while the husband's guilt is pretty obvious, presumably the court would have to have proof that she knew about him using the ticket to convict her?

The OP states "He was found using this in the bus whilst I was with him......so the tfl guys were very rude to us and accused us of fraud...."

She was present, and fully aware of him using the ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

On the duplicate ticket form there will be a section called 'Declaration' which will require a signature and have something along the lines of the following in it:

Declaration

I declare that the information I have given is to the best of my knowledge true and I realise that I may be prosecuted for making false statements.
I give authority for the making of such enquiries as are reasonably necessary to verify the information that I have given in respect of the application.
I agree to accept the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, in particular Condition 34 (reproduced overleaf).

I also agree, that in consideration of RBT and the Train Service Provider issuing me a duplicate season ticket in lieu of the season ticket detailed
in section 2 above, I undertake to indemnify and hold RBT and the Train Service Provider harmless against any loss which may accrue to them by
improper use by the original ticket detailed in section 2 above and return the latter to RBT should it be subsequently found.

For the purposes of clarity Condition 34 is:

34. Lost, stolen or mislaid tickets

If you lose or mislay a Season Ticket (or a Smartcard containing a Season Ticket) or it is
stolen, unless Condition 32 applies, the Train Company which sold it will arrange for it to
be replaced with a duplicate Season Ticket or, if relevant, a duplicate Smartcard provided
that:

(a) you tell staff at the office from which it was bought as soon as you
reasonably can and, if required, you give a reasonable explanation for
the loss;

(b) you agree to return immediately the lost Season Ticket, or Smartcard
containing a Season Ticket, if you find it, to the office from which it was
bought;

(c) the lost Season Ticket is valid for one month or longer; and

(d) you pay a reasonable administrative charge (not exceeding £20) for the issue of
the duplicate Season Ticket.

Only one duplicate will normally be allowed for any lost or stolen Season Ticket. However,
a second duplicate will usually be allowed if:

(i) the original Season Ticket or Smartcard containing a Season Ticket is
returned to the Train Company which sold it within one month of it having been
told of the loss; or

(ii) the first or second request for a duplicate was a result of a verifiable theft,
robbery, fire, or other exceptional circumstances which have been reported to the
police, the fire service or another appropriate organisation.

You will not, in any circumstances, be issued with more than two duplicate Season Tickets
in any 12 month period.

I imagine TfL have something similar in their conditions of issue.

 

[Ferret]

Sounds quite reasonable and would certainly seem to be a line of defence for the OP. However, given the posts above, I imagine she's not coming back to give us the full story.

Do we really need the full story from here? The OP has already told us that in effect, they've torpedoed any hope of limiting the damage. I don't see that any of us are in any position to help here - a very deep hole has been dug with a very large shovel.

 

[Flamingo]

There is a large number of people out there that think if they make a counterallegation when caught, that it will deflect attention from their wrongdoing. Unfortunately, they quite often find that it muddies the water enough that they get away with blatent offences. Obviously this is one such case, and the OP thinks that the complaint will result in her and partners fare evasion will be overlooked. I'm sure that she will not return to say what happened, but it would be nice to think that a trip to court will result as a result of her attempt to hide her own wrongdoing by accusing staff who dared to catch a pair of fraudsters in the act.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

[As we've acknowledged that the OP is unlikely to return and that there is nothing more to be said aboy that incident, I won't apologise for continuing this drift of subject]

There is a large number of people out there that think if they make a counterallegation when caught, that it will deflect attention from their wrongdoing. Unfortunately, they quite often find that it muddies the water enough that they get away with blatent offences. . .

I agree. But I have found that the responses from corporate 'customer services' or other departments can be unpredictable in other respects.

They might take a simple report of a fact as 'a complaint' and respond with an apology and a refund (while ignoring the issue referred to);
they might take the same simple report of fact as 'a complaint' and respond by conducting quite a thorough investigation leading to a robust defence and threat of a counter claim;
they might take a request as a complaint and a complaint as a request, but most amusingly, might ask if they can disegard the whole matter because they don't have any way of dealing with it! That's the most saddening innapropriate response to a customer/suspected offender's letter.

I don't know why I bother trying to be helpful!

 

[Clip]

I don't think we really need quite so much unpleasantness about it.

.

Oh I think so. Unless you work for my CS department who drive me insane by agreeing that the passengers story is always right - even when I have witnessed an incident with my inspectors.

In fact we should be more blunt when it comes to obvious and flagrant fare evasion and the more unpleasant we can be then maybe the more people will actually get the message that it is not ok to do things such as the OP and try and counteract it by saying the inspectors were rude.

In fact im getting quite sick of this softly softly approach from not just within the railway but those outside of it looking in too.

 

[Flamingo]

[As we've acknowledged that the OP is unlikely to return and that there is nothing more to be said aboy that incident, I won't apologise for continuing this drift of subject]I agree. But I have found that the responses from corporate 'customer services' or other departments can be unpredictable in other respects.

They might take a simple report of a fact as 'a complaint' and respond with an apology and a refund (while ignoring the issue referred to);
they might take the same simple report of fact as 'a complaint' and respond by conducting quite a thorough investigation leading to a robust defence and threat of a counter claim;
they might take a request as a complaint and a complaint as a request, but most amusingly, might ask if they can disegard the whole matter because they don't have any way of dealing with it! That's the most saddening innapropriate response to a customer/suspected offender's letter.

I don't know why I bother trying to be helpful!

Well customer service departments operate to an agenda that is usually apparent to nobody but themselves, I have found over the years (and I don't mean just the railways).

And I appreciate you being helpful

 

[Clip]

Well customer service departments operate to an agenda that is usually apparent to nobody but themselves, I have found over the years (and I don't mean just the railways).

And remember the majority of them come from a mind set that if it will portray the company in a bad light then they dont want to do that.. Hence how nice they can be at time.s

 

[Flamingo]

And remember the majority of them come from a mind set that if it will portray the company in a bad light then they dont want to do that.. Hence how nice they can be at time.s

The problem is that they confuse "nice" with "right".

Hell, we can all get a warm fuzzy feeling by walking through a train, giving free upgrades, telling everybody that the ticket irregularity doesn't matter, ignoring the fact they are on a peak train with a supersaver ticket, or three hours early with a missing railcard on their Advance ticket. It's great "customer service", and the guards who do this never get any complaints.

 

[Clip]

The problem is that they confuse "nice" with "right".

Hell, we can all get a warm fuzzy feeling by walking through a train, giving free upgrades, telling everybody that the ticket irregularity doesn't matter, ignoring the fact they are on a peak train with a supersaver ticket, or three hours early with a missing railcard on their Advance ticket. It's great "customer service", and the guards who do this never get any complaints.

Exactly. That would be a CS dream and a TOCs nightmare which would put paid to the whole concept of pricing tickets by demand.

Just lets charge everyone a quid per journey and the railways would have the best news headlines everywhere with not a moaner in sight. Until they remembered they couldnt sit down anywhere at any time and then we all go bust.

all in the name of being 'nice'.

 

[Ferret]

There is a large number of people out there that think if they make a counterallegation when caught, that it will deflect attention from their wrongdoing. Unfortunately, they quite often find that it muddies the water enough that they get away with blatent offences. Obviously this is one such case, and the OP thinks that the complaint will result in her and partners fare evasion will be overlooked. I'm sure that she will not return to say what happened, but it would be nice to think that a trip to court will result as a result of her attempt to hide her own wrongdoing by accusing staff who dared to catch a pair of fraudsters in the act.

I think many companies have got wise to this now. And not before time!

 

[Flamingo]

I think many companies have got wise to this now. And not before time!

I wish :roll:

 

[Ferret]

I wish :roll:

Mine seems to have, certainly where cases of out and out fraud are being prosecuted!

 

[jon0844]

£1 for everyone? I'm more important than you lot so demand to be charged 50p max and get a free first class upgrade.

I am going to write in and complain of victimisation now. The person trying that on me is clearly a Nazi.

(gotta prove Godwin's Law)

 

[Robsignals]

As i found my original train annual ticket, I gave my duplicate to my husband to return back to the train station. He was found using this in the bus whilst I was with him......so the tfl guys were very rude to us and accused us of fraud and didnt even want to listen to us. I have already raised the complaint to TFL formally and have offered to pay any fine...

Im v stressed what they will do to us? We are due to go travelling?

Will prosecution lead to a fine? or jail?

I have never committed any offense before.....

As so often a believable story of a genuine foul-up or an admission of deliberate fare evasion wanting help to minimise the penalty? Impossible to prove either way, looking at past threads the advice is already available, except for the bus element.

The "travelling" may mean they plan to leave soon on a world trip not returning for months/years and want to know either;
a) will it be dealt with before they go and/or,
b) if they can't be found will the case be dropped after x months so they can return later without worry? I'd say that can never be assumed.

Can I ask if help and advice should be so freely given if a hypothetical person may be 'guilty' and simply wants help to evade the full penalty? I'm not accusing any specific person of any deliberate law or rule breaking.

 

[tony_mac]

Can I ask if help and advice should be so freely given if a hypothetical person may be 'guilty' and simply wants help to evade the full penalty?

I have no problem with that.

Murderers get free legal representation; the prosecution have an array of professionals to turn to, while people who commit minor offences frequently only have strangers on the internet for help - and they often prefer just to make snide comments from the safety of their keyboard.