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Help and advice needed please

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Designtime

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I am appealing the notice of no valid ticket on the following grounds.

I had an appointment in Chingford on the 12/05/2022 to drop my car off at a car dealer. (See attached Letter) I have never been to Chingford before and I knew I was going to have to catch the train home. I googled the quickest way and was recommended a bus to Walthamstow and then take a train to Kings Cross and then Metropolitan line to Chesham. The Garage offered me a lift to Chingford over ground station. I bought a ticket to Walthamstow (see attached ticket). Once I was on the train I could see it would be way easier to go through to Liverpool Street and pick up the Metropolitan tube from there.

I arrived in Liverpool Street and approached a guard on the gate to purchase the difference in the ticket cost. I was told that was not an option anymore. I had travelled illegally so they can only give me a Penalty fare.

  • I did not know this was not an option anymore otherwise I would have departed the train in Walthamstow and bought another ticket to Liverpool Street.
  • I was unfamiliar with this area and never travelled this route before and it was a genuine mistake.
  • I never done this before and will not make that mistake again.
  • My trip to Chingford was to sell my car as I am unemployed.
  • Approached the guard and explained the situation. I was not trying to evade payment.
  • I am more than happy to pay the fair from Walthamstow to Liverpool Street.
I do hope you can see this was a genuine honest mistake.

My Appeal was rejected! I made the following 2nd appeal because I felt they had received a standard rejection letter that did not reflect my situation.

Appeal No.2

I am making a second appeal as I feel my first appeal was totally ignored and grossly unfair.

I have been sent a standard rejection letter that does not explain how the decision to reject my claim was made. I strongly feel that the TfL staffer has not read my first statement.

The letter states the following:

1. A code of practice called Greater London Authority Act 1999, but gives no detail to where I can access and check it was followed correctly and fairly.

2. It also states, “All transport companies operating a Penalty Fare scheme display warning notices which advise transport users of their obligations and the potential consequences in failing to meet these”. There were no notices that covered my travel situation. Please show me a notice that displays You will be Prosecuted for a genuine mistake because you never use this train service before.

3. I was not approached by anybody and asked to show a valid ticket. I approached your staff to make a payment. I could have lied and said I lost my ticket or jumped over the barrier but I was honest and wanted to pay the fare difference. This seems to be a grossly unfair and inflexible way to work. I can understand this applying to multiple offenders. In my case I have never travelled on this train before.

4. On assessment your appeal has been declined. Why was it declined? I have no detail reasoning! Again I feel the TfL staffer has not read and addressed my statement directly.

I am more than happy to follow this through to court proceedings as I do strongly feel a Judge would see my circumstances have not been taken into consideration and your process was inflexible and unfair in this instance.

Again I have received a standard rejection reply! this is the response I received below:

It is the passenger’s responsibility to be able to prove, when asked by the Inspector, that they have paid for their journey in advance. As you did not do this the Inspector was correct to issue a Penalty Fare because you had not paid for your journey. Tickets and passes represent the only proof that you are authorised to make a journey; they must also be made available for inspection on request. While you may have made a genuine mistake, you were unable to produce a valid ticket or pass for your journey, the Inspector was therefore correct to issue a Penalty Fare.

I was not asked to produce a ticket I had a valid ticket to an earlier designation and I volunteered the extra fair to the new destination. This seems really unfair what can I do? Do I make a third appeal? or should I just pay it? Or wait and go to court? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

Darren
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Welcome to the forum!

So, to summarise, you boarded at Chingford with a Chingford to Walthamstow Central ticket, but stayed on the train beyond Walthamstow to London Liverpool Street.

Seems to be that you didn't have a valid ticket for your entire journey, and so, might not have any valid grounds for a successful appeal.

What have you been asked to pay to settle this matter, exactly?
 

Designtime

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10 Jun 2022
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Location
Bournemouth
Welcome to the forum!

So, to summarise, you boarded at Chingford with a Chingford to Walthamstow Central ticket, but stayed on the train beyond Walthamstow to London Liverpool Street.

Seems to be that you didn't have a valid ticket for your entire journey, and so, might not have any valid grounds for a successful appeal.

What have you been asked to pay to settle this matter, exactly?
£40 within the next 14 days
 

Class800

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As far as I can see, there is no legal or contractual grounds for appeal - but the Guard was unhelpful and too pedantic, but did not do anything legally incorrect.
 

Class800

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Sadly I would agree

Although worth checking was it a Guard or an RPI. As if a Guard, he may have exceeded his authority in issuing a PF
 

Mcr Warrior

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As far as I can see, there is no legal or contractual grounds for appeal - but the Guard was unhelpful and too pedantic, but did not do anything legally incorrect.
Was it the train "guard" or more likely a member of staff manning the barriers having arrived at Liverpool Street, or maybe even revenue protection? Take it that there is no such thing as an "excess fares" ticket window there anymore?
 

Watershed

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£40 within the next 14 days
You would be well advised to pay this, as I cannot see that you have any valid ground of appeal. You didn't have a valid ticket when inspected, and there were facilities at Chingford to buy a ticket for your whole journey, so you are liable for a Penalty Fare. There is no obligation on the person deciding your appeal to exercise any discretion.

Unlike with 'National Rail' Penalty Fares, appealing a TfL Penalty Fare does not prevent you from being taken to Court. Only paying it does that.

If you fail to pay, you will be taken to Court and you will in all likelihood be found guilty. The fine alone, let alone Court costs and the Victim surcharge, will cost you far more than £40.

It's one to chalk up to experience.
 

6Gman

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You would be well advised to pay this, as I cannot see that you have any valid ground of appeal. You didn't have a valid ticket when inspected, and there were facilities at Chingford to buy a ticket for your whole journey, so you are liable for a Penalty Fare. There is no obligation on the person deciding your appeal to exercise any discretion.

Unlike with 'National Rail' Penalty Fares, appealing a TfL Penalty Fare does not prevent you from being taken to Court. Only paying it does that.

If you fail to pay, you will be taken to Court and you will in all likelihood be found guilty. The fine alone, let alone Court costs and the Victim surcharge, will cost you far more than £40.

It's one to chalk up to experience.
I would agree with this.

And wouldn't the ticket office at Chingford (I assume there is one?) be able to issue a single ticket to Chesham?
 

WesternLancer

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Ok, I will pay. Thanks everyone for your help
I'm guessing if your journey start was within the Oyster / contactless payment zone you would have been OK had you changed your route plan mid journey - but that was not an option when a ticket bought that does not allow any en route flexibility. So it is bad luck.
 

skyhigh

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People's plans can change en route. Without a smartphone, how can someone buy an excess fare nowadays?
If there's no guard on the train, get off at the station your ticket is valid too and buy another.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Although worth checking was it a Guard or an RPI. As if a Guard, he may have exceeded his authority in issuing a PF
If it's someone manning the barriers, there's no chance it was a guard (assuming you're using the rulebook definition of 'Guard' and not meaning a security guard). And if it was a guard who couldn't issue a penalty fare, how did they have the means to issue one?
 

andrew749

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The London Overground barriers at Liverpool Street are manned by Overground staff, hence the person on the barrier was following the TfL rulebook rather than the railway rulebook. TfL don't have a concept of excess fares - if you don't have the right ticket it's a penalty fare or prosecution. (Whether or not they should have their own fiefdom within a Network Rail-managed station is another argument entirely.)
 

Hadders

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I agree that the OP would be well advised to pay the £40 to prevent the matter from escalating. Although a Penalty Fare might feel like a fine, it isn’t. It’s a higher than normal fare charged to someone who has made a mistake. If you were suspected of evading your fare then you would have risked being reported for prosecution.

From what I can make out the OP held a Chingford to Walthamstow ticket but wanted to travel beyond to Liverpool Street and thence on to Chesham. An overdistance excess would be appropriate but this would need to have been purchased before the train departed from Walthamstow. There are no guards on trains between Chingford and Walthamstow so the OP would not have been able to purchase an excess on board.

What I don’t understand, and I assume the OP perhaps didn’t realise, is that contactless could’ve been used for the whole journey from Chingford to Chesham. It would’ve been cheaper and would’ve allowed flexibility of route.
 

furlong

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What I don't understand is why a Chingford to Chesham ticket was not purchased in the first place. Why only buy a ticket for a small part of the journey then travel beyond the paid-for destination and expect not to be treated like someone trying to dodge the rest of the fare? Whatever your reasoning was, it's an expensive lesson to learn. Yes, use contactless in future - making sure you remain within the area in which it is valid - and then you don't have to specify your destination or route in advance but get charged retrospectively based on what you actually did.
 

swt_passenger

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The London Overground barriers at Liverpool Street are manned by Overground staff, hence the person on the barrier was following the TfL rulebook rather than the railway rulebook. TfL don't have a concept of excess fares - if you don't have the right ticket it's a penalty fare or prosecution. (Whether or not they should have their own fiefdom within a Network Rail-managed station is another argument entirely.)
I‘m not convinced by your explanation. I doubt any TOC staff are supposed to issue an over distance excess retrospectively. Especially if you’re in a driver only area, I think you‘re always going to be considered ticketless once you’ve gone past your original destination.
 
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