Heathrow

[Timmyd]

Something that has always puzzled me and I wonder if the wise people here can help. When the extension to Terminal 5 was opened, was any consideration given to reversing the route trains took to Terminal 4, so that a more consistent and easier to understand service pattern could be put in place?

It has always struck me that it would make more sense to for all trains to go Hatton Cross-T2/3-then continue alternately to terminate at either T4 and T5. Same route returning with the 'loop' between T4 and Hatton Cross not used.

That would be much less confusing for passengers (including the many overseas visitors using the tube this way), spare people going to T2/3 the long pause at T4 and presumably be simpler to operate too.

I'm sure there must be a reason - anyone know what it is?

 

[Mike395]

It's an interesting one - I can't find a source so take this with a pinch of salt as it's very much from my memory, but I remember reading something saying this was considered but rejected on cost grounds, as all the signalling on the loop would need replacing/improving (as it's not bi-directional).

 

[Dstock7080]

Would require a new junction tunnel at Hatton Cross onto the eastbound road, or trains would need to use platform 1 (current westbound) then cross onto the eastbound road, possibly delaying the next westbound service.
Hatton Cross would then have eastbound trains departing from either platform, a state that was used at its opening of course

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As I recall, the current odd looking arrangement came about because Terminal 5 was built in a different place from where it was originally planned, but by that time the Piccadilly loop had already been built because of Terminal 4 and the course of it took into account where Terminal 5 was expected to be - hence the need for a spur to be built to Terminal 5.

 

[announcements]

Isn't it also so T4 customers have a direct transfer route to Heathrow Central, without having to Hatton Cross and change?

 

[Benjwri]

Whatever way round you do it you will end up with one direction having a lesser service. I do suspect this way round can help with crowding at Heathrow T123.

Isn't it also so T4 customers have a direct transfer route to Heathrow Central, without having to Hatton Cross and change?

Rail provides a direct route anyways.

 

[Watershed]

Isn't it also so T4 customers have a direct transfer route to Heathrow Central, without having to Hatton Cross and change?

Heathrow offers airside buses for connecting passengers. For those who are landside and need to e.g. access the hotels at T4, the Elizabeth line performs that role just as well, I would suggest.

In any case it would effectively just reverse the current situation where T2/3/5 to T4 transfers require a change at Hatton Cross if using the Tube.

 

[pelli]

However you do it, there will be one direction where T4 trains will "only be able to" carry T4 passengers while T23+T5 passengers all have to squeeze onto T5 trains. Currently, this is heading towards Heathrow, and means that T23 passengers board "any Heathrow train" in Central London (spread out along the train due to differing entrance locations at different stations) and then all squeeze onto the T5 train for just one stop from Hatton Cross to T23. If you reverse it, then all the T23+T5 passengers will be packed onto the same train leaving Heathrow (all clustered around where the entrances are at the T23 and T5 stations), and nobody will change at Hatton Cross onto the emptier T4 train behind. (Edit: And the packed part of the T5 train might cause increased dwell times throughout, resulting in the following T4 train bunching up.) Perhaps locals would then figure out to time their eastbound travels to catch those T4 starters for a more comfortable journey! (Yes, I do think about how headways and entrance/exit locations affect passenger loadings and try to get a less crowded carriage when travelling on the Underground...)

 

[ATS3]

It's an interesting one - I can't find a source so take this with a pinch of salt as it's very much from my memory, but I remember reading something saying this was considered but rejected on cost grounds, as all the signalling on the loop would need replacing/improving (as it's not bi-directional).

Could be feasible whenever the Piccadilly Line gets upgraded to CBTC in the future...

 

[bluegoblin7]

Could be feasible whenever the Piccadilly Line gets upgraded to CBTC in the future...

This wouldn't solve the infrastructure issues, though. Resignalling in this instance would be the easy bit.

 

[Railguy1]

Those suggesting to use rail as a transfer between terminals I am curious to know whether they have used it before. The Elizabeth line is a fair long walk to one of the terminals from my memory and that’s just leaving the station and not even reaching platform level. I’ve also had individuals tell me that the central bus station can be far for them but I’ve personally never taken the bus to Heathrow.

 

[Watershed]

Those suggesting to use rail as a transfer between terminals I am curious to know whether they have used it before. The Elizabeth line is a fair long walk to one of the terminals from my memory and that’s just leaving the station and not even reaching platform level. I’ve also had individuals tell me that the central bus station can be far for them but I’ve personally never taken the bus to Heathrow.

The T2&3 NR station is a fair walk from T3; the Underground station is closer.

 

[Dstock7080]

The T2&3 NR station is a fair walk from T3; the Underground station is closer.

think you have that the reverse way around, the NR station is closer to T3 than the Underground station.

 

[Timmyd]

Isn't it also so T4 customers have a direct transfer route to Heathrow Central, without having to Hatton Cross and change?

Think you and few others are misunderstanding my original question. My idea was that all trains run from Hatton Cross to T2/3, than alternate between heading to T4 and T5. On return, they reverse and head back the same way.

That way there would still be direct trains in both directions from T2/3 to both other terminals, a more frequent direct service to T2/3, and less crowding of the T5 trains as there is now.

The issue I guess would be the single track between T2/3 and T4 but given a frequency of say every 10 or 12 minutes which is about what it seems now, I wouldn’t have thought that wouldn’t be insurmountable?

 

[Benjwri]

The issue I guess would be the single track between T2/3 and T4 but given a frequency of say every 10 or 12 minutes which is about what it seems now, I wouldn’t have thought that wouldn’t be insurmountable?

Every 10 minutes yes, but a runtime of 5 minutes from T4 to T23. Once you include changing ends it becomes impossible.

 

[35B]

Think you and few others are misunderstanding my original question. My idea was that all trains run from Hatton Cross to T2/3, than alternate between heading to T4 and T5. On return, they reverse and head back the same way.

That way there would still be direct trains in both directions from T2/3 to both other terminals, a more frequent direct service to T2/3, and less crowding of the T5 trains as there is now.

The issue I guess would be the single track between T2/3 and T4 but given a frequency of say every 10 or 12 minutes which is about what it seems now, I wouldn’t have thought that wouldn’t be insurmountable?

The obvious issue is that you'd introduce a guaranteed crossing movement at Hatton Cross for all trains coming out of T4, which might force wrong way running through the station.

 

[edwin_m]

The obvious issue is that you'd introduce a guaranteed crossing movement at Hatton Cross for all trains coming out of T4, which might force wrong way running through the station.

I think the OP's idea is to abandon the direct link between Hatton Cross and T4 (or use it for occasional moves only) so T4 becomes a terminus accessed via T23 only. However, as mentioned, it would be a single platform on the end of a long single line stub, so wouldn't support a high frequency service.

I believe T4 doesn't figure in longer-term plans, so its Piccadilly Line loop and Elizabeth Line stub would most likely also be abandoned with all services terminating at T5. Or some other variation to serve whatever terminal facilities come with the third runway.

 

[35B]

I think the OP's idea is to abandon the direct link between Hatton Cross and T4 (or use it for occasional moves only) so T4 becomes a terminus accessed via T23 only. However, as mentioned, it would be a single platform on the end of a long single line stub, so wouldn't support a high frequency service.

I believe T4 doesn't figure in longer-term plans, so its Piccadilly Line loop and Elizabeth Line stub would most likely also be abandoned with all services terminating at T5. Or some other variation to serve whatever terminal facilities come with the third runway.

So T4 becomes a bit like Mill Hill East, a dead end stub with capacity for one train only. While T4 remains open, I see that being less than ideal.

 

[bluegoblin7]

I think the OP's idea is to abandon the direct link between Hatton Cross and T4 (or use it for occasional moves only) so T4 becomes a terminus accessed via T23 only. However, as mentioned, it would be a single platform on the end of a long single line stub, so wouldn't support a high frequency service.

I believe T4 doesn't figure in longer-term plans, so its Piccadilly Line loop and Elizabeth Line stub would most likely also be abandoned with all services terminating at T5. Or some other variation to serve whatever terminal facilities come with the third runway.

I read the idea as to reverse the whole loop, so all trains go to 2&3 then 4 or 5, rather than 4/2&3 or 2&3/5.

Using T4 as a dead end terminus would significantly reduce the capacity for both Heathrow as a whole and to T4 - 6tph wouldn’t be possible, considering a run time between 4 and 2&3 is around 5 minutes as it is.

Running as a reversed loop is arguably possible only with signalling changes, but as mentioned would cause significant pressure at Hatton Cross with all trains using the ‘wrong’ platform and the knock on effect to westbound throughout.

The current service pattern has many merits, both operationally and practically.

 

[zwk500]

The issue I guess would be the single track between T2/3 and T4 but given a frequency of say every 10 or 12 minutes which is about what it seems now, I wouldn’t have thought that wouldn’t be insurmountable?

London Underground WTT gives the running time from T4 to T2/3 as 5.25 minutes. The actual junction is not quite at T2/3 (according to Carto Metro), but to run 10 minutes interval would almost certainly require a 2nd platform and still be running at close to 100% occupation.
15 Minutes would be the realistic limit with 1 platform and even then that's giving at most 5 minutes to turnround.

 

[John R]

With 10, and almost certainly soon to be 12, main line trains serving Heathrow, I can't imagine that any changes in the Underground provision would be contemplated, at least until whatever terminal provision is put in place for the third runway is needed.

As an aside, going back to post 12 about the long walk from Heathrow 2/3 main line station, I do wonder how many people underestimate the walking (and lift) time needed to get to T2, especially if their flight then leaves from the satellite terminal. It's a fair old slog, especially if you are trundling heavy cases, even with the travelators.

 

[Timmyd]

I think the OP's idea is to abandon the direct link between Hatton Cross and T4 (or use it for occasional moves only) so T4 becomes a terminus accessed via T23 only. However, as mentioned, it would be a single platform on the end of a long single line stub, so wouldn't support a high frequency service.

I believe T4 doesn't figure in longer-term plans, so its Piccadilly Line loop and Elizabeth Line stub would most likely also be abandoned with all services terminating at T5. Or some other variation to serve whatever terminal facilities come with the third runway.

This is what I was getting at with my original post but understand now that the single track branch is too long to do this. My original reasoning being that T2/3 is by far the busiest station at LHR, T4 much quieter, and a ‘via T4’ train not only has a long detour but also the ‘up to 8 minutes’ wait at T4 which makes it a very slow way to get to the busiest station.

With 10, and almost certainly soon to be 12, main line trains serving Heathrow, I can't imagine that any changes in the Underground provision would be contemplated, at least until whatever terminal provision is put in place for the third runway is needed.

As an aside, going back to post 12 about the long walk from Heathrow 2/3 main line station, I do wonder how many people underestimate the walking (and lift) time needed to get to T2, especially if their flight then leaves from the satellite terminal. It's a fair old slog, especially if you are trundling heavy cases, even with the travelators.

On a related note, it seems such a waste that the direct and modern link from the rail station to the former T1 (which must have cost a fortune) is seemingly redundant forever after just a few years use , as indeed is the link from the Piccadilly Line ticket hall

 

[Dstock7080]

On a related note, it seems such a waste that the direct and modern link from the rail station to the former T1 (which must have cost a fortune) is seemingly redundant forever after just a few years use , as indeed is the link from the Piccadilly Line ticket hall

38 years use, from Underground station opening in 1977 until T1 closing in 2015.
It may reopen once T1 is demolished and Heathrow extend the new T2 over the site.

 

[announcements]

This is what I was getting at with my original post but understand now that the single track branch is too long to do this. My original reasoning being that T2/3 is by far the busiest station at LHR,

Yes, hence still often referred to as "Heathrow Central" to emphasise is primacy. Much to dismay of Terminal 5 lovers!

T4 much quieter, and a ‘via T4’ train not only has a long detour but also the ‘up to 8 minutes’ wait at T4 which makes it a very slow way to get to the busiest station.

I think at a very minimum, the destination of the train and announcements should show it terminating at Heathrow T4, as I suspect very few passengers would want to access T2&3 via the T4 loop if they could just wait for a train to T5. This would mean the T4-125 stretch is effectively just for those wishing to transfer terminals (and for all traffic bound for central London).

 

[Timmyd]

38 years use, from Underground station opening in 1977 until T1 closing in 2015.
It may reopen once T1 is demolished and Heathrow extend the new T2 over the site.

I mean the HEX station when I said ‘rail station’