Heathrow Connect suspended/332s withdrawn from service (running again)

[coppercapped]

Well a financial penalty would fix the problem as it would disenstivise hah from pulling the connect to fix the express.

So why is Heathrow Connect more important that HEx?

The answer is NOT that HEx is a private operator or that only 'elites' use Heathrow.

 

[talltim]

So why is Heathrow Connect more important that HEx?

The answer is NOT that HEx is a private operator or that only 'elites' use Heathrow.

Presumably the answer is that Connect carries more passengers

 

[matt_world2004]

So why is Heathrow Connect more important that HEx?

The answer is NOT that HEx is a private operator or that only 'elites' use Heathrow.

Because gwr use the hc to fulfill some of its legally mandadted franchise obligations
Because GWR receive travel card revenue based on the assumption that the hc is running.
Because the loadings at stations on the route have become dangerous due to the failure of gwr to meet its franchise obligations
Because as a result of the failure to keep the hc connect running heathrow airport holdings are basically charging £6 to board a £1.50 London Bus.
Because as a result of people using buses instead of the hc. Buses are being curtailed as increased loadings mean buses cannot keep to the timetable (On the First 607 that leaves uxbridge at 5:30 , There were 85 passengers on board by the time it left hayes by pass)

 

[JN114]

Because gwr use the hc to fulfill some of its legally mandadted franchise obligations
Because GWR receive travel card revenue based on the assumption that the hc is running.
Because the loadings at stations on the route have become dangerous due to the failure of gwr to meet its franchise obligations
Because as a result of the failure to keep the hc connect running heathrow airport holdings are basically charging £6 to board a £1.50 London Bus.
Because as a result of people using buses instead of the hc. Buses are being curtailed as increased loadings mean buses cannot keep to the timetable (On the First 607 that leaves uxbridge at 5:30 , There were 85 passengers on board by the time it left hayes by pass)

1) GWR are using what resources they have to cover the Connect service, including cancelling other "legally mandated franchise obligations" in order to ensure there are resources available to serve Hanwell and West Ealing.
2) And GWR are still running an hourly "Heathrow Connect service, why therefore shouldn't they be entitled to that revenue. Revenue distribution doesn't work like that.
3) Services are crowded, but "dangerous" is an incredibly emotive word that hardly describes the situation at present.
4) Im not privy to ticket sales figures, but I find it hard to believe anyone is being sold Hayes - Heathrow Connect tickets at the moment. The vast majority of tickets used on Connect east of Hayes are travelcards and PAYG. Those using PAYG on the 140 will be charged the bus fare, not the Heathrow fare.
5) If, according to your previous posts GWR/Connect should be expected to have contingencies that cover Heathrow Connect being completely unavailable, then Metroline West should also have contingencies for reduced rail services - after all they get a portion of travelcard revenue... That contingency should be implementable 24/7 at a moments notice, and bear no due regard to any of Metroline's other commitments.

 

[matt_world2004]

1) GWR are using what resources they have to cover the Connect service, including cancelling other "legally mandated franchise obligations" in order to ensure there are resources available to serve Hanwell and West Ealing.

Either way they are in breach of their agreement with the DfT.

2) And GWR are still running an hourly "Heathrow Connect service, why therefore shouldn't they be entitled to that revenue. Revenue distribution doesn't work like that.

Because they receive travel card revenue based on running an half hourly service.:roll: Revenue distribution for travel cards is based on a percentage of users keeping a travel card diary, adjusted to reflect planned engineering work and other short term disruptions. The less services they run the less users use the services.

3) Services are crowded, but "dangerous" is an incredibly emotive word that hardly describes the situation at present.

GWR obviously think its dangerous enough to require the employment of passenger stewards at stations to stop people rushing forward when the train comes in.

4) Im not privy to ticket sales figures, but I find it hard to believe anyone is being sold Hayes - Heathrow Connect tickets at the moment. The vast majority of tickets used on Connect east of Hayes are travelcards and PAYG. Those using PAYG on the 140 will be charged the bus fare, not the Heathrow fare.

Then there would be no need for ticket acceptance on the 140,350 and Piccadilly line then.

5) If, according to your previous posts GWR/Connect should be expected to have contingencies that cover Heathrow Connect being completely unavailable, then Metroline West should also have contingencies for reduced rail services - after all they get a portion of travelcard revenue... That contingency should be implementable 24/7 at a moments notice, and bear no due regard to any of Metroline's other commitments.

Metroline do not get a proportion of the travelcard revenue. Metrolines revenue for running London bus services, is not based on how many users use the services, but the bid they put in to run the service based on TfL's requirements for the route.

 

[JN114]

Again you're mixing up the word dangerous and crowded. this link makes the point quite clearly I hope.

Youve moaned and whined for days about this now. HEx have a business to run, and are using their trains for their services. This isn't the first time HEx have cancelled the Connect to continue running the Express. Several of their infrastructure contingency plans involve terminating Connect at Hayes to ensure the branch is still usable by the Express. Recent OHLE/Pantograph issues saw one of three connect circuits cancelled and the 360 from that circuit covering for a lack of 332s.

At the end of the day, the powers that be see it like this. HEX's situation is un-precedented. The market they serve is very important to London businesses and tourism. They're "suffering" enough having to short-form all their services, and cancel the connect. GWR made the case to HEx early on to compromise - reduced HEx and hourly connect. The short forms meant this wasn't possible. They've since done their best to cover the connect, including pulling resources from other routes, spreading the disruption and "pain" to other lines. Meaning misery and inconvenience for passengers who, rightly, shouldn't be affected by Heathrow's issues. Have the DfT stripped GWR of their franchise, or revoked HEX's access agreement. No. Because they understand both operators are doing the best they can, with due regard to the bigger picture.

Are you seriously saying that cancelling the express is a better option? Have you any idea how busy the services are? They don't run 9 coaches all day just to play silly beggars. You want to put all those passengers on stopping trains whose primary purpose is to relieve congestion between Hayes and London? You'd have all the capacity issues you have now, and no paths for GWR to run additionals to pick up the 100s of passengers who'd be left behind, as your precious connects would now be full & standing from the Airport.

 

[matt_world2004]

Again you're mixing up the word dangerous and crowded. this link makes the point quite clearly I hope.

People are rushing forward when trains pull into the platform because they know that they are unlikely to get on if they don't. that is dangerous. Someone is going to get pushed under a train or dragged along the platform. As has already happened this year

Youve moaned and whined for days about this now. HEx have a business to run, and are using their trains for their services. This isn't the first time HEx have cancelled the Connect to continue running the Express. Several of their infrastructure contingency plans involve terminating Connect at Hayes to ensure the branch is still usable by the Express. Recent OHLE/Pantograph issues saw one of three connect circuits cancelled and the 360 from that circuit covering for a lack of 332s.

At the end of the day, the powers that be see it like this. HEX's situation is un-precedented. The market they serve is very important to London businesses and tourism. They're "suffering" enough having to short-form all their services, and cancel the connect. GWR made the case to HEx early on to compromise - reduced HEx and hourly connect. The short forms meant this wasn't possible. They've since done their best to cover the connect, including pulling resources from other routes, spreading the disruption and "pain" to other lines. Meaning misery and inconvenience for passengers who, rightly, shouldn't be affected by Heathrow's issues. Have the DfT stripped GWR of their franchise, or revoked HEX's access agreement. No. Because they understand both operators are doing the best they can, with due regard to the bigger picture.

GWR entered into a contract with HC to cover their franchise obligations, yet according to someone in this thread, didn't actually specify a penalty if HC chose not to honour those obligation, that was incredibly stupid and raises questions about basic due diligence at GWR. Have the DfT seriously already decided that they are not going to sanction GwR or are you speculating?

Are you seriously saying that cancelling the express is a better option? Have you any idea how busy the services are? They don't run 9 coaches all day just to play silly beggars. You want to put all those passengers on stopping trains whose primary purpose is to relieve congestion between Hayes and London? You'd have all the capacity issues you have now, and no paths for GWR to run additionals to pick up the 100s of passengers who'd be left behind, as your precious connects would now be full & standing from the Airport.

The per passenger EJT of a passenger expecting an express and getting a connect is about 7 minutes. The EJT of cutting the connect service in half is 30 minutes, on stations that have higher loadings than heathrow airport stations, by every objective loading metric the connect should be higher prioritized, In terms of GwR legal obligations they should have specified a contract that gave Heathrow Airport Holdings an obligation to actually run the service they are contracted to run.
If you are upset about people about fare paying passengers criticizing your precious GwR for their stupidity and your precious Heathrow Airport Holdings for their greed may I suggest you avoid threads about situations caused and aggravated by those two factors. :roll:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

NRE says Heathrow Connect is withdrawn until at least Saturday 12 March.
If nothing else, HEx's information management and service recovery plan is pretty poor.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx

 

[Tetchytyke]

'Private suites'?

http://www.singaporeair.com/en_UK/flying-with-us/suites/

http://www.emirates.com/uk/english/flying/cabin_features/first_class/first_class.aspx

I take it that you do know about business jets? Look up, for example, the Gulfstream V.

It doesn't have the range of the biggest commercial jets. The A380's range is nearly 50% further. But private jets are fine for medium haul, e.g. within the US or Europe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You want to put all those passengers on stopping trains whose primary purpose is to relieve congestion between Hayes and London?

Connect is not there to "relieve congestion", Connect exists because there isn't enough capacity to run a stopping service and Connect. Connect is a replacement for GWR stoppers, not an enhancement.

Are you seriously saying that cancelling the express is a better option?

Yes.

Have the DfT stripped GWR of their franchise, or revoked HEX's access agreement. No. Because they understand both operators are doing the best they can, with due regard to the bigger picture.

Who is talking about "stripping franchises"?

Chiltern Railways were fined an awful lot of money for attempting to meet their franchise obligations with an Open Access service, and then failing to do so. It was that fine that made them finally close Wrexham and Shropshire. I am failing to see what the difference here is.

The whole situation is an absolute shambles and, yes, GWR should be hit where it hurts for what has happened.

I am assuming that you are speculating as it is far too early for regulators to be doling out fines.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes GWR is failing its minimum service requirements, but there is nothing else they can do!
There is no spare rolling stock within the franchise, and HC drivers probably don't sign anything other than 332s and 360s.

Remember these are special circumstances and beyond GWRs control.

What else can GWR realistically do?

 

[matt_world2004]

Yes GWR is failing its minimum service requirements, but there is nothing else they can do!
There is no spare rolling stock within the franchise, and HC drivers probably don't sign anything other than 332s and 360s.

Remember these are special circumstances and beyond GWRs control.

What else can GWR realistically do?

signing a contract that would have financially penalised Heathrow Airport Holdings for failing to provide a service would have been a start.

 

[coppercapped]

signing a contract that would have financially penalised Heathrow Airport Holdings for failing to provide a service would have been a start.

And how does that help the passengers?

 

[matt_world2004]

And how does that help the passengers?

The same way such contracts help passengers of the London Bus Network, Of Thameslink Of London Overground; acting as a financial incentive for speedy service recovery and disenstivises The operator prioritising other services over the one they have a contract to provide.

 

[3141]

Yes, why wouldn't I be?

Because it might suggest you were a person who thinks everything should be arranged exactly the way they want it and that they should be paid every time it doesn’t happen that way.

But of course you can check your season ticket contract to see if it stipulates HC or GWR must always provide a specified service frequency.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The same way such contracts help passengers of the London Bus Network, Of Thameslink Of London Overground; acting as a financial incentive for speedy service recovery and disenstivises The operator prioritising other services over the one they have a contract to provide.

In the real world, the sort of contract (or penalty clause within a contract) you're obsessing about would almost certainly exclude penalty payments or rights to compensation for the sort of engineering issues we've seen with the Class 332 fleet, or make the rolling stock maintainer or supplier liable for any compensation.

It's enormously unlikely that any contractual agreement would ever be agreed to which would achieve the sort of end result you're wanting in the circumstances we're looking at here.

 

[matt_world2004]

In the real world, the sort of contract (or penalty clause within a contract) you're obsessing about would almost certainly exclude penalty payments or rights to compensation for the sort of engineering issues we've seen with the Class 332 fleet, or make the rolling stock maintainer or supplier liable for any compensation.

It's enormously unlikely that any contractual agreement would ever be agreed to which would achieve the sort of end result you're wanting in the circumstances we're looking at here.

Tell me again,What is exavtly wrong with Heathrow Connects rolling stock?

 

[SWT_USER]

Because it might suggest you were a person who thinks everything should be arranged exactly the way they want it and that they should be paid every time it doesn’t happen that way.

But of course you can check your season ticket contract to see if it stipulates HC or GWR must always provide a specified service frequency.

Not asking for eveything the way I want it (although I do think GWR could have done more) but I don't think it's unreasonable to want a little money off my season ticket in these circumstances to be honest.

 

[185143]

Not asking for eveything the way I want it (although I do think GWR could have done more) but I don't think it's unreasonable to want a little money off my season ticket in these circumstances to be honest.

ESPECIALLY as Express passengers are getting cheaper tickets for the inconvenience of the same journey time and same frequency......

(Yes I know 360s are not nearly to the same interior standard 332s are but people pay for HEX for the journey time, not the comfort!)

 

[jon0844]

I am going to Heathrow tomorrow and took advantage of the lower ticket prices, although I've had to split the tickets because if I buy from Hatfield then I'll still pay the full price.

I wonder how many people will snap up cheap tickets for future travel? I assume they'll be valid even if the 332s started again tomorrow?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Were the cracks found on all the 332s in the end? Is there something about the line that makes them prone to the cracks in the locations were they've been found?

 

[SWT_USER]

To their credit GWR are finally stopping additional trains at West Ealing, Southall and Hayes, at least in the peak. (everywhere but Hanwell which still had the fewest trains to begin with :roll

Shame it's taken them nearly 2 weeks to realise this was a good idea.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BBC Lonon Chao with a microphone outside Hanwell station this morning, no doubt waiting for some angry commuters. He won't be waiting long

 

[MatthewRead]

To their credit GWR are finally stopping additional trains at West Ealing, Southall and Hayes, at least in the peak. (everywhere but Hanwell which still had the fewest trains to begin with :roll

Shame it's taken them nearly 2 weeks to realise this was a good idea.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BBC Lonon Chao with a microphone outside Hanwell station this morning, no doubt waiting for some angry commuters. He won't be waiting long

I went to Hanwell last week and an hourly service from Hayes and Harlington was stopping there see www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7WMslnUXr0

 

[Gagravarr]

I'm new here, so bear with me, but...

I understand that running from Hayes & Harlington into Heathrow has various restrictions on what trains can be used (electric only, certain signalling kit etc), and that the replacement buses are overcrowded. For that, why not take the approach taken with other long-term disruptions, and charter in a fleet of coaches to shuttle people from Hayes to Heathrow? It will mean a change, and will be slower than a train, but ought to be sortable in under a day + relieves pressure on the buses + quicker if running non-stop

That leaves the Hayes & Harlington to Paddington overcrowding. I believe that excursion and charter trains sometimes run into Paddington. There also should be quite a few freight drivers who know the lines around Paddington from Crossrail work deliveries. So, hire in some coaches from wherever you can (eg someone who provides them for rail tours or charter trains), top an tail it with whatever freight locos you can find (diesel or electric - wires up between H&H and Paddington), then run as a shuttle into the bay platform.

Now, it won't be cheap - need to hire coaches, need to hire locos and carriages at the last minute, paperwork etc. If then-FGW did have a proper contract with Heathrow, then they pass the cost on, who likely punt it onto the 332 maintainers. If then-FGW were muppets, then GWR just has to eat the costs for their past mistakes. Or have I missed a snag with this plan?

 

[MatthewRead]

I'm new here, so bear with me, but...

I understand that running from Hayes & Harlington into Heathrow has various restrictions on what trains can be used (electric only, certain signalling kit etc), and that the replacement buses are overcrowded. For that, why not take the approach taken with other long-term disruptions, and charter in a fleet of coaches to shuttle people from Hayes to Heathrow? It will mean a change, and will be slower than a train, but ought to be sortable in under a day + relieves pressure on the buses + quicker if running non-stop

That leaves the Hayes & Harlington to Paddington overcrowding. I believe that excursion and charter trains sometimes run into Paddington. There also should be quite a few freight drivers who know the lines around Paddington from Crossrail work deliveries. So, hire in some coaches from wherever you can (eg someone who provides them for rail tours or charter trains), top an tail it with whatever freight locos you can find (diesel or electric - wires up between H&H and Paddington), then run as a shuttle into the bay platform.

Now, it won't be cheap - need to hire coaches, need to hire locos and carriages at the last minute, paperwork etc. If then-FGW did have a proper contract with Heathrow, then they pass the cost on, who likely punt it onto the 332 maintainers. If then-FGW were muppets, then GWR just has to eat the costs for their past mistakes. Or have I missed a snag with this plan?

And most charter stock doesn't meet modern Health & Safety standards!

 

[Bletchleyite]

And most charter stock doesn't meet modern Health & Safety standards!

It doesn't need to, it has grandfather rights. It would be perfectly permissible for GWR to hire in a couple of locomotives and a set of Mk2s to operate on an additional service; other TOCs do this from time to time and there is nothing special about Paddington that would prohibit it there. They couldn't operate Connect past Hayes, of course, but I'm not convinced that is the main problem.

 

[theageofthetra]

Just bought a ticket for Heathrow back to Padd at the reduced price (with Priv) for mid April-seems to be no end date for the cheaper rate. If I was a regular business user or someone who purchased lots of these journeys for a company's employees I would be filling my boots!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

It doesn't need to, it has grandfather rights. It would be perfectly permissible for GWR to hire in a couple of locomotives and a set of Mk2s to operate on an additional service; other TOCs do this from time to time and there is nothing special about Paddington that would prohibit it there. They couldn't operate Connect past Hayes, of course, but I'm not convinced that is the main problem.

You know, why not offer WCRC a reduced punishment if they help out with this

 

[cjohnson]

There was a 332 back in passenger service at Paddington this evening so hopefully this is getting resolved....

 

[Nippy]

Yes they are being released into service as they are being repaired.

 

[rebmcr]

The first few will probably just release the 360s for delayed maintenance...