Heathrow £500 million link

[Morgsie]

Transport Secretary Philip Hammond is considering a new spur that connects Heathrow Airport and Reading. This proposed spur will connect to HS2.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14784527

 

[northwichcat]

Heathow does need more long distance trains but at the current time the £500m could be better utilised to run better services on existing infrastructure.

 

[Greenback]

The spur from the GWML to Heathrow has been talked about for a long time. It would be a benefit for people travelling to the airport from south wales, Bristol and the South West.

However I can see little advantage in travelling to Reading and then on to Heathrow to access HS2 from South Wales.

I would also question whether this is the best use of scarce funds at this time. Surely there ar ebette ruses for the money? GWML travellers have the choice of the rail air link, Heathrow Express or change at Reading for Hayes and Heathrow Connect. Not to mention the alternative bus and taxi options.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I think it is an excellent idea. Heathrow airport is arguably the busiest airport in the world* yet unless you are coming from or going to central London, the only way of getting there is by road. The rail connections to Heathrow really are third rate compared to most other "big" airports in the country. Having a proper station that is connected to the rest of Britain really would help things, it would take a lot of pressure of those extremely busy stretches of the M4 and M25 that are constantly clogged up by airport bound traffic and it would bring us a step closer to the truly integrated transport system that we are supposedly aspiring to have.


*There are multiple ways of measuring this, by almost any measure it is one of the top three and it is certainly the busiest international airport in the world.

 

[142094]

Might be the busiest but doesn't necessarily mean that everyone there has started/ended their trip at Heathrow. Lot of connections are made there.

 

[Greenback]

I think it is an excellent idea. Heathrow airport is arguably the busiest airport in the world* yet unless you are coming from or going to central London, the only way of getting there is by road. The rail connections to Heathrow really are third rate compared to most other "big" airports in the country. Having a proper station that is connected to the rest of Britain really would help things, it would take a lot of pressure of those extremely busy stretches of the M4 and M25 that are constantly clogged up by airport bound traffic and it would bring us a step closer to the truly integrated transport system that we are supposedly aspiring to have.


*There are multiple ways of measuring this, by almost any measure it is one of the top three and it is certainly the busiest international airport in the world.

It won't really be connected without through services. I'm not sure how many people would abandon their cars or coaches if they still had to change from one train to another.

I'm not against it, I'm just wondering if it would be the best use of resources at the present time.

 

[tbtc]

Transport Secretary Philip Hammond is considering a new spur that connects Heathrow Airport and Reading. This proposed spur will connect to HS2

Is that the same Transport Secretary Philip Hammond who binned the idea of a direct line into Heathrow from the south/west just a few weeks ago?

 

[anthony263]

Personally i hope they dont divert any of the high speed services from South wales/bristol etc into Heathrow as that would increasee the journeys times which were reduced whe electrification is carried out.

Might be a good idea though to run a half hourly local service using the slow lines out of Reading to Heathrow serving Maidenhead & Slough etc which a lot of local residents have been calling for. perhaps these local trains could come from Oxford/Newbury

 

[Greenback]

Is that the same Transport Secretary Philip Hammond who binned the idea of a direct line into Heathrow from the south/west just a few weeks ago?

Yes, but then it is only a story in a Sunday paper!

Personally i hope they dont divert any of the high speed services from South wales/bristol etc into Heathrow as that would increasee the journeys times which were reduced whe electrification is carried out.

Might be a good idea though to run a half hourly local service using the slow lines out of Reading to Heathrow serving Maidenhead & Slough etc which a lot of local residents have been calling for. perhaps these local trains could come from Oxford/Newbury

This is partly why I have misgivings. There is too much of a time penalty for trains toc all at Heathrow en route to Paddington, unless a new high speed line is built through the airport and back on to the GWML.

But without through trains, will there be enough of a modal shift to justify the expense?

I'd be very interested in seeing the business case for these plans, if they are more than a figment of someone's imagination that is!

 

[anthony263]

Yes, but then it is only a story in a Sunday paper!



This is partly why I have misgivings. There is too much of a time penalty for trains toc all at Heathrow en route to Paddington, unless a new high speed line is built through the airport and back on to the GWML.

But without through trains, will there be enough of a modal shift to justify the expense?

I'd be very interested in seeing the business case for these plans, if they are more than a figment of someone's imagination that is!

Actually it seems that it will be a shuttle train service from Reading not diverting the intercity trains. I think a local rail service to/from Reading is a good idea. Here is another suggestion if east west rail is completed why not electrify that link and have a hourly service between Milton Keynes & Heathrow Via Oxford & Reading.

Dont think some of the coach operators who run services to/from Heathrow will be too pleased though. the service from south wales to Heathrow is very popular and hopefully will not loose out if this railink gets the go ahead

 

[DarloRich]

Have they not just canned a propsed link form Staines or somewhere?

 

[tbtc]

This is partly why I have misgivings. There is too much of a time penalty for trains toc all at Heathrow en route to Paddington, unless a new high speed line is built through the airport and back on to the GWML.

But without through trains, will there be enough of a modal shift to justify the expense?

I'd be very interested in seeing the business case for these plans, if they are more than a figment of someone's imagination that is!

Yeah, thats why I find this tricky.

Say we are talking about Cardiff trains here - to run Cardiff - Heathrow - Paddington would be quite a time penalty (and negate the benefits of electrification reducing the journey time of the existing service)...

...but are there spare paths for a dedicated Cardiff - Heathrow service (that runs alongside the existing Cardiff - Paddington route)?

And would there be sufficient demand for such a service (if there were paths), since it won't serve central London?

The logical way to do it would be to restrict this Heathrow "spur" to "local" trains (like the idea of a Reading shuttle - a direct replacement for the existing coach service). Ideally I'd suggest a southern link to the Airport too, so that you could run a service from Oxford/Reading through Heathrow to South London (and beyond). But that'll never happen.

(one benefit of a Reading - Heathrow shuttle train is that it'd mean there was no need for the M4 busway, which would please a few Tories - or have they scrapped that?)

 

[jopsuk]

Is that the same Transport Secretary Philip Hammond who binned the idea of a direct line into Heathrow from the south/west just a few weeks ago?

Yes. That went through his constituency where there are already severe level corssing related traffic jams.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So this is neither Airtrack, nor the Heathrow Hub, nor the HS2 through route or spur.
Looks like a Heathrow-Reading rail-air bus replacement only.

Funny this has been picked up in South Wales as a "Cardiff to Heathrow direct rail link" and not by the local Thames Valley set.

I smell a big red herring designed to buy time for a real Heathrow rail strategy.

Maybe if BAA are prepared to build the Airtrack infrastructure westwards from T5, this is an alternative way of connecting it usefully to the outside world (using the Colnbrook spur), avoiding the planning issues for Airtrack around Staines.

 

[tbtc]

How much of a time penalty would it be to extend the Heathrow Crossrail services to Maidenhead/ Reading (compared to them running "all stops" on the GWML to Maidenhead/ Reading)?

 

[anthony263]

How much of a time penalty would it be to extend the Heathrow Crossrail services to Maidenhead/ Reading (compared to them running "all stops" on the GWML to Maidenhead/ Reading)?

quiete a bit i would think considering the time the driver has to change ends etc and even then i think the link to the GWML willl be to T5 only so trains will have to serve T5 and reverse there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah, thats why I find this tricky.

Say we are talking about Cardiff trains here - to run Cardiff - Heathrow - Paddington would be quite a time penalty (and negate the benefits of electrification reducing the journey time of the existing service)...

...but are there spare paths for a dedicated Cardiff - Heathrow service (that runs alongside the existing Cardiff - Paddington route)?

And would there be sufficient demand for such a service (if there were paths), since it won't serve central London?

The logical way to do it would be to restrict this Heathrow "spur" to "local" trains (like the idea of a Reading shuttle - a direct replacement for the existing coach service). Ideally I'd suggest a southern link to the Airport too, so that you could run a service from Oxford/Reading through Heathrow to South London (and beyond). But that'll never happen.

(one benefit of a Reading - Heathrow shuttle train is that it'd mean there was no need for the M4 busway, which would please a few Tories - or have they scrapped that?)

There are no trains departing cardiff at 05 minutes past the hour but are there any paths east of Newport? and too be honest i think a lot of people would just catch National express anyway especially since it runs 24 hours a day

 

[Rational Plan]

Have they not just canned a propsed link form Staines or somewhere?

Yes because they could not sort out the problems with all the level crossings. If you go onto the BAA website it mentions that the are now looking at a new rail strategy for the Airport. I suspect most of the money for the new link will come from the Airport.

I read the Sunday Times article and while it is vague (source is unamed). It mentions Network rail was only informed about it last week. The Modern Rail guy is saying it is probably just a shuttle service, but that is not what the article said.

The article did mention four trains an hour to Reading, but also mentions trains from Cardiff and Bristol having direct access. They also mentioned how it could be combined with a future HS2 spur. It also talked of new platforms at either of the main terminals, rather than off the airport. All costing £500 million.

It of course depends how accurate any of these points are. But £500 million seems a bit high for just a shuttle service or extension of Crossrail.

They already have the platforms at T5, it just needs a short tunnel under the M25 and then surface to join the old freight line from Poyle industrial estate. Just 1.5 km of new tunnel and surface route.

This would have to remain single track through the M25 M4 junction but could be double track either side, then north to GWML where there is already an underpass to the slow lines, the just need to build a West facing junction.

I struggle to see £500 million there. There is no need for anymore if all your going to do is run slow services through the airport.

On the other hand if they want a new station for intercity and HS2, then the cheap route would not be ideal for a high speed approach, or to cope with crossrail and intercity services.

A tunnel all they way from the main line at a diagonal to the airport is 5km. That, with new platforms seems way over £500 million.

If they had not said they were looking at how to combine intercity and high speed infrastructure then I would assume it was just Airtrack heading North rather than South. Whatever is built High speed can't use the existing stations at Heathrow.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

quiete a bit i would think considering the time the driver has to change ends etc and even then i think the link to the GWML willl be to T5 only so trains will have to serve T5 and reverse there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There are no trains departing cardiff at 05 minutes past the hour but are there any paths east of Newport? and too be honest i think a lot of people would just catch National express anyway especially since it runs 24 hours a day

Well there is already the Heathrow express tunnels so local services could be Paddington most stations to Hayes & Harlington- CTA-T5 and either all stations Reading or most stations missing out Iver and Taplow.

The RUS is already looking at a new Crossrail service pattern with 10 peak trains an hour to the airport. Another six would stay on the GWML. All would be a mixture of locals and semi fasts towards Paddington. It eventually saw 8 crossrail services extended beyond the airport, 4 to Reading and 4 to Staines.

 

[Greenback]

Actually it seems that it will be a shuttle train service from Reading not diverting the intercity trains. I think a local rail service to/from Reading is a good idea. Here is another suggestion if east west rail is completed why not electrify that link and have a hourly service between Milton Keynes & Heathrow Via Oxford & Reading.

Dont think some of the coach operators who run services to/from Heathrow will be too pleased though. the service from south wales to Heathrow is very popular and hopefully will not loose out if this railink gets the go ahead

The coach will take you directly to the airport, no messing about dragging bags across Rading station, which is why I have my doubts that people will be attracted away from their current choice of transport to one that requires a change on to a local train service.

Of course, the local service will be sueful for people from Reading and Oxford, but is that enough to justify the construction of a spur?

Yeah, thats why I find this tricky.

Say we are talking about Cardiff trains here - to run Cardiff - Heathrow - Paddington would be quite a time penalty (and negate the benefits of electrification reducing the journey time of the existing service)...

...but are there spare paths for a dedicated Cardiff - Heathrow service (that runs alongside the existing Cardiff - Paddington route)?

And would there be sufficient demand for such a service (if there were paths), since it won't serve central London?

I don't know whether there would be any spare paths, but turning off for Heathrow then reversing and rejoining the GWML would mean a minimum of fifteen minutes time penalty I reckon, if not more.

So this is neither Airtrack, nor the Heathrow Hub, nor the HS2 through route or spur.
Looks like a Heathrow-Reading rail-air bus replacement only.

Funny this has been picked up in South Wales as a "Cardiff to Heathrow direct rail link" and not by the local Thames Valley set.

It's bizarre, as it does appear to be a case of just running from Reading!

 

[Rational Plan]

The coach will take you directly to the airport, no messing about dragging bags across Rading station, which is why I have my doubts that people will be attracted away from their current choice of transport to one that requires a change on to a local train service.

Of course, the local service will be sueful for people from Reading and Oxford, but is that enough to justify the construction of a spur?



I don't know whether there would be any spare paths, but turning off for Heathrow then reversing and rejoining the GWML would mean a minimum of fifteen minutes time penalty I reckon, if not more.



It's bizarre, as it does appear to be a case of just running from Reading!

Why do people think that the train is going to reverse at Heathrow? It's not mentioned anywhere in the article. If all it is, is a slow line train from Reading then it continue forward to London via the Heathrow express tunnels and join at Hayes and Harlington. IT DOES NOT NEED TO REVERSE. A service that diverts to Heathrow won't be attractive to London bound commuters, West of Hayes, but for those going to London from Hayes it will be fine and those travelling between Reading and Slough it will be useful.

This won't happen till after Crossrail, so it seems obvious that some local services will operate as through services at the Airport.

I very much doubt the Air coach will remain after the rail link comes into being. While traffic is good it would run at a decent speed on the Motorway, Readings traffic can be a real pig at the best of times. never mind problems on the M4. A cross platform change at Reading or Slough will be easier than getting a coach at Reading, also you'll have the advantage of through ticketing.

 

[Greenback]

Why do people think that the train is going to reverse at Heathrow? It's not mentioned anywhere in the article. If all it is, is a slow line train from Reading then it continue forward to London via the Heathrow express tunnels and join at Hayes and Harlington. IT DOES NOT NEED TO REVERSE. A service that diverts to Heathrow won't be attractive to London bound commuters, West of Hayes, but for those going to London from Hayes it will be fine and those travelling between Reading and Slough it will be useful.

There is no need to shout! How is the train going to get back to the GWML without retracing it's steps?

You have, in fact, highlighted the difficulties for longer distance passengers.

This won't happen till after Crossrail, so it seems obvious that some local services will operate as through services at the Airport.

I'm afraid it's not obvious to me. Nor is it obvious how these local services will benefit passengers from Cardiff, Bristol or the West Country.

I very much doubt the Air coach will remain after the rail link comes into being. While traffic is good it would run at a decent speed on the Motorway, Readings traffic can be a real pig at the best of times. never mind problems on the M4. A cross platform change at Reading or Slough will be easier than getting a coach at Reading, also you'll have the advantage of through ticketing.

There is already through ticketing on the coach.

I am still to be convinced that the benefits are enough to support this shceme. It is a lot of money to pay to take a few coaches off the M4.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I now read any BBC transport output, such as this link to the BBC Wales report at least twice, before even thinking of making any judgement, due to some very wooly reporting standards in these. The BBC Wales report gives the impression that "Phillip Hammond is said to be drawing up plans" for this scheme. The Department of Transport has declined to comment. So it seems that The Sunday Times is the lead rumourmonger here.

On a more railway minded note, Tony Miles, who writes for Modern Railways, a publication that covers rail in serious minded terms, thinks it would not be a through service from Cardiff and Swansea et al, as that would be fairly impractical.

So whose line do you follow...The Sunday Times or Modern Railways?

 

[Greenback]

I now read any BBC transport output, such as this link to the BBC Wales report at least twice, before even thinking of making any judgement, due to some very wooly reporting standards in these. The BBC Wales report gives the impression that "Phillip Hammond is said to be drawing up plans" for this scheme. The Department of Transport has declined to comment. So it seems that The Sunday Times is the lead rumourmonger here.

On a more railway minded note, Tony Miles, who writes for Modern Railways, a publication that covers rail in serious minded terms, thinks it would not be a through service from Cardiff and Swansea et al, as that would be fairly impractical.

So whose line do you follow...The Sunday Times or Modern Railways?

Well, I have far more repsect for the journalism in Modern Railways than the Sunday Times!

We have raised the reasons why a through service from Cardiff would not be possible, including the time penalty and a possible lack of paths. It seems likely that Tony Miles will also be aware of these obstacles, and know more abouth the practicalities than the likes of me or any Sunday Times journo!

 

[Butts]

Well, I have far more repsect for the journalism in Modern Railways than the Sunday Times!

We have raised the reasons why a through service from Cardiff would not be possible, including the time penalty and a possible lack of paths. It seems likely that Tony Miles will also be aware of these obstacles, and know more abouth the practicalities than the likes of me or any Sunday Times journo!

Can you fly from Cardiff to Heathrow....coming from Scotland I would always Fly in to connect to a flight ??

 

[Greenback]

Can you fly from Cardiff to Heathrow....coming from Scotland I would always Fly in to connect to a flight ??

I don't think so, in any case, it's not worth the hassle of enduring Cardiff Airport!

Actaulyl, one of my former work colleagues persuaded our employer to pay for an air ticket for a business trip to London while the short lived service from Swansea Airport wa sin operation a few years back.

His verdict was that the aircraft was old and cramped, and the choice of two flights a day was not enough, and the fact that the plane aslo stopped at Cardiff meant that it was not much quicker than the HST, whne you factor in the time getting into Central London as well!

No doubt others agreed as the service was soon cancelled!

 

[Butts]

I don't think so, in any case, it's not worth the hassle of enduring Cardiff Airport!

Actaulyl, one of my former work colleagues persuaded our employer to pay for an air ticket for a business trip to London while the short lived service from Swansea Airport wa sin operation a few years back.

His verdict was that the aircraft was old and cramped, and the choice of two flights a day was not enough, and the fact that the plane aslo stopped at Cardiff meant that it was not much quicker than the HST, whne you factor in the time getting into Central London as well!

No doubt others agreed as the service was soon cancelled!

The big benefit if you are coming from Scotland and connecting to a flight at Heathrow is losing the bags (not literally) till you get to your final destination.

 

[Greenback]

I think with the Swansea service you carried them on your lap. There were very cheap fares for wing walkers too!

It's not really worth flying from Cardiff or Swansea to Heathrow in my opinion. It's the sort of distance that is most suited to rail, particularly if there were fast, direct trains!

 

[Rational Plan]

There is no need to shout! How is the train going to get back to the GWML without retracing it's steps?

I am still to be convinced that the benefits are enough to support this shceme. It is a lot of money to pay to take a few coaches off the M4.

As this will all occur after the line has been electrified, trains from Reading can divert off the line East of Slough into Terminal 5.

Terminal 5 station was built with 6 platforms, two for the tube, two for crossrail and two spare. The station box was built for easy connection for a tunnel heading West. The previous Airtrack scheme headed west then south and head Eastwards into Staines. That scheme had a new junction designed so an easy connection could be made to the GWML in a west bound direction.

Current services head East then North up to GWML to Hayes and then to London Paddington. It will be simple to run a local service to Heathrow, trains won't need to reverse as the line would be u shaped. The Eastern leg is already built.

I'm afraid it's not obvious to me. Nor is it obvious how these local services will benefit passengers from Cardiff, Bristol or the West Country.
I am still to be convinced that the benefits are enough to support this shceme. It is a lot of money to pay to take a few coaches off the M4.

The whole M4 corridor has boomed because of it's proximity to Heathrow. There are dozens of mutinational business spread along the corridor. I used to work for one. Connections to the airport are very important and a lot of business travel is reliant on a good connection to the airport. Lots of people also work at the airport, or just around it. witness the morning jams on the M4 for the M25, or traffic coming off junction 5 for the A4.

Good connections here would make a big difference for a lot of people in Reading and points East. 4 trains an hour would in effect become a Thames Valley Metro service.

So no, a cheapish connection for local services won't make a huge difference to Wales other than more convenient connections and a shorter journey time.
But the benefits on a local level will be high and is so much more than a few coaches off the motorway. As to the routing it seems obvious if you look at a map or read the RUS documents at Network rail.

A through service will not require anyone to reverse their train. a service that terminates at Heathrow will not require any reversing to head back west.

We will only be able to judge the true benefits when the actual details are released for consultation.

 

[Butts]

I think with the Swansea service you carried them on your lap. There were very cheap fares for wing walkers too!

It's not really worth flying from Cardiff or Swansea to Heathrow in my opinion. It's the sort of distance that is most suited to rail, particularly if there were fast, direct trains!

Dream on Greenback

 

[Greenback]

As this will all occur after the line has been electrified, trains from Reading can divert off the line East of Slough into Terminal 5.

Terminal 5 station was built with 6 platforms, two for the tube, two for crossrail and two spare. The station box was built for easy connection for a tunnel heading West. The previous Airtrack scheme headed west then south and head Eastwards into Staines. That scheme had a new junction designed so an easy connection could be made to the GWML in a west bound direction
Current services head East then North up to GWML to Hayes and then to London Paddington. It will be simple to run a local service to Heathrow, trains won't need to reverse as the line would be u shaped. The Eastern leg is already built..

Well, if there is to be a westbound continuation from T5 to the GWML then that would be a lot better, but until I see firm plans for this I think it's more likely that the preferred option would be a new spur to the west of Airport Junction.

The whole M4 corridor has boomed because of it's proximity to Heathrow. There are dozens of mutinational business spread along the corridor. I used to work for one. Connections to the airport are very important and a lot of business travel is reliant on a good connection to the airport. Lots of people also work at the airport, or just around it. witness the morning jams on the M4 for the M25, or traffic coming off junction 5 for the A4.

Good connections here would make a big difference for a lot of people in Reading and points East. 4 trains an hour would in effect become a Thames Valley Metro service.

So no, a cheapish connection for local services won't make a huge difference to Wales other than more convenient connections and a shorter journey time.
But the benefits on a local level will be high and is so much more than a few coaches off the motorway. As to the routing it seems obvious if you look at a map or read the RUS documents at Network rail.

A through service will not require anyone to reverse their train. a service that terminates at Heathrow will not require any reversing to head back west.

We will only be able to judge the true benefits when the actual details are released for consultation.

Yes, I used to live in Reading, so I know a lot about the economy of the Thames Valley. I don't doubt that there will be benefits for the businesses in the area.

I'm not so sure about airport workers, as many have to work unsocial hours, and will be unwilling to use the trains unless they can get them to and from work at the times they ened to be there.

I agree that we can only assess the ideas properly when full details are published.

 

[paulravuslante]

Well, if there is to be a westbound continuation from T5 to the GWML then that would be a lot better, but until I see firm plans for this I think it's more likely that the preferred option would be a new spur to the west of Airport Junction.

I don't think that a westbound spur at airport junction is realistic. There are many buildings situated along the lineside and the curve would be quite tight if it were to be built outside the current tunnel portal. In addition the flyover at airport junction is to be remodelled for Crossrail so it would have made sense to incorporate a westbound facing connection into those works. Lastly it would mean more conflicting movements between trains (especially during disruption) on the GWML and the airport branch if trains are crossing from the up GWML onto the airport branch and again crossing on the junction outside the airport tunnel portal.

To me it would make much more sense to utilise the platforms which already exist at T5 and put in a westward tunnel down to the GWML to connect east of Langley station, where there is plenty of room for a fly-under and /or tunnel portals. This would reduce conflicting movements between trains within the airport network as trains can divert via Heathrow rather than travel via Slough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not so sure about airport workers, as many have to work unsocial hours, and will be unwilling to use the trains unless they can get them to and from work at the times they ened to be there.

BAA has made considerable efforts in getting airport workers to use public transport to the airport (including discounted ticket options exclusive to staff, arranging for additional early morning / late night buses into the airport to meet staff starting times). Heathrow Connect is popular with airport staff and many of the early morning and late evening services resemble staff trains as 75% of the passengers are airport workers. I would expect the same sort of thing to apply to any extensions to the airport's transport links in future.