Heart of Wales line future services

[Llanigraham]

Even better, we Powys bus pass holders get free travel in the winter!

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think its sensible that a seasonal restriction is placed on this.

 

[edwin_m]

Would it be possible for ATW to run a more frequent service on this line? Maybe every two hours in each direction? I am just wondering if the service was more frequent then it could attract many more people to use the line?

Makes no sense at the moment, demand is just not there and with the shortage of stock that ATW currently have they definitely don't want to commit more trains to the route.

I've attempted to timetable a more frequent through service and it just isn't possible without several more passing loops, or lots more very long waits at crossing stations. Adding short workings either end isn't too difficult as they only pass one other train so times can be set to achieve that (I don't know the details of how the "new" short workings were arrived at so can't comment on this). However as soon as an end-to-end passes more than one end-to-end in the opposite direction, timing it to make the first crossing means it misses the second one by a long way no matter which of the existing loops is used. It would need several more passing loops to make it work.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A new depot at Llandovery? It's a tiny place, isn't it? Does it have the population to provide the drivers and guards for such a depot?

Anyway, if there is space available and population, it would cost an awful lot in initial investment, in terms of fixed assets and human resources. The Welsh Development Office (or whatever it is called) should subsidise it as a means of increasing and diversifying rural employment opportunities.

Machynlleth and Pwllheli both have depots with no recruitment problems. Theres 40 plus drivers and conductors at Machynlleth Which is the same size as Llandovery. Holyhead has an ATW and a VTWC depot but it's only a town of 10K. Rural doesn't equal nothing there far from it.

 

[berneyarms]

I've attempted to timetable a more frequent through service and it just isn't possible without several more passing loops, or lots more very long waits at crossing stations. Adding short workings either end isn't too difficult as they only pass one other train so times can be set to achieve that (I don't know the details of how the "new" short workings were arrived at so can't comment on this). However as soon as an end-to-end passes more than one end-to-end in the opposite direction, timing it to make the first crossing means it misses the second one by a long way no matter which of the existing loops is used. It would need several more passing loops to make it work.

It is even more difficult to path when you factor in the limited paths around the West Wales to Manchester, South Wales-North Wales and Swansea-Pembroke services on the main lines at either end.

 

[Llanigraham]

I think its sensible that a seasonal restriction is placed on this.

Agreed, but it would also be nice to be able to use the facility all year round.

 

[Llanigraham]

Not sure how much land NR still own there, but it does look like there is waste ground to between the end of the loop and J E Rees's.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...75970c00d!8m2!3d51.9952924!4d-3.8005829?hl=en

 

[berneyarms]

I can see other arguments in favour, but is the HOW circuit really that time-sensitive? And what is the current usage of the circular ticket?

PS Thanks for the map link - if the SDL were to reopen, a station by the J47 services would make better sense IMO.

Expecting through passengers on the 09:14 ex-Crewe (10:09 ex-Shrewsbury) to sit twiddling their thumbs for 21 minutes at Llandrindod Wells is frankly pushing things.

Similarly the 14:05 from Shrewsbury waits for 14 minutes at Llanwrtyd.

In the opposite direction the 06:03 service from Swansea waits at Llanwrtyd for 17 minutes.

The 18:21 service from Swansea waits for 25 minutes at Llanwrtyd and for a further 17 minutes at Llandrindod.

All caused by the need to fit in with the morning extras and the Crewe-Shrewsbury service pattern.

Hardly attractive being honest about it.

I fully understand why it happens, due to the pathing constraints and rolling stock constraints, but frankly the WG bit off more than it could chew with the recast on this route - it needs more rolling stock for a start.

 

[Envoy]

I cant add much to the discussions on future services but for those who's journey is not time sensative there are some very decent advances available on most trains and I myself intend riding the line throughout from CRE to LLE later this year as the timing of my journey makes the main route via Cardif much more expensive.

Could you not purchase a Heart of Wales Rover for £39? Then you would just have to pay for a CRE>SHR return.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr259c57c35ce74100506efaeed80267.aspx

Heart of Wales Circular Day Ranger
Overview
Enjoy a circular journey in either direction around the designated circuit on Arriva Trains Wales services.

Details
Heart of Wales Circular Day Ranger offers a circular journey in either direction around the circuit between Cardiff Central - Craven Arms - Shrewsbury - Llandrindod Wells - Llanelli - Swansea - Cardiff Central on Arriva Trains Wales services.
The journey can start at any station on the designated circuit.

 

[Greenback]

Expecting through passengers on the 09:14 ex-Crewe (10:09 ex-Shrewsbury) to sit twiddling their thumbs for 21 minutes at Llandrindod Wells is frankly pushing things.

Similarly the 14:05 from Shrewsbury waits for 14 minutes at Llanwrtyd.

In the opposite direction the 06:03 service from Swansea waits at Llanwrtyd for 17 minutes.

The 18:21 service from Swansea waits for 25 minutes at Llanwrtyd and for a further 17 minutes at Llandrindod.

All caused by the need to fit in with the morning extras and the Crewe-Shrewsbury service pattern.

Hardly attractive being honest about it.

I fully understand why it happens, due to the pathing constraints and rolling stock constraints, but frankly the WG bit off more than it could chew with the recast on this route - it needs more rolling stock for a start.

I bet the smokers will be happy that they can nip off for a quick puff!

Seriously, while it doesn't look good, I don't think it's quite as bad as it seems for most passengers. After all, not many will be using the trains for end to end journeys, and I cna remember having some waits at stations like Llanwrtyd back in the 1980's.

It may be a few minutes longer now, and some of my previous waits may have been down to late running as well as the timetable, but it's always been part of the HoW, and I feel that anyone ona time sensitive joureny isn't going to be likely to use the trains anyway.

I admit I'd rather see things looking a better and the service being as attractive as possible to potential users, but I don't see what can realistically be done in the short term. Any suggestions form anyone?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Thanks to Envoy, as it happens my journey is a 1 way only one to line myself up for the fishguard overnighter and going through Cardif and Swansea at evening peek comes in at double the price.

 

[berneyarms]

I bet the smokers will be happy that they can nip off for a quick puff!

Seriously, while it doesn't look good, I don't think it's quite as bad as it seems for most passengers. After all, not many will be using the trains for end to end journeys, and I cna remember having some waits at stations like Llanwrtyd back in the 1980's.

It may be a few minutes longer now, and some of my previous waits may have been down to late running as well as the timetable, but it's always been part of the HoW, and I feel that anyone ona time sensitive joureny isn't going to be likely to use the trains anyway.

I admit I'd rather see things looking a better and the service being as attractive as possible to potential users, but I don't see what can realistically be done in the short term. Any suggestions form anyone?

Operating a single track railway with passing loops is in itself difficult, especially if line speeds change (loops can end up being in the wrong place), and when you add in the constraints at either end of fitting in with other services it is tricky.

But I refuse to believe that having a train sitting for 42 minutes along the way is good operating practice. Those kind of waits mid-journey are excessive in the extreme.

The point I am making is that by adding the additional services, without providing additional rolling stock resources the WG made virtually all of the other journeys on the line slower - that's not exactly progress is it?

 

[craigybagel]

Even better, we Powys bus pass holders get free travel in the winter!

It's been extended to all of Wales now! But if you live the wrong side of Knighton you have to pay full price. I know it's because it's the Welsh who are paying for it, (and why should they pay for the English to travel?) but it does seem rather cruel.

I think its sensible that a seasonal restriction is placed on this.

Very sensible - on certain days we struggle to fit all the pass holders on! Keep an eye out on Saturday services for the next few weeks, they're always bedlam when the free travel period is about to expire.

Machynlleth and Pwllheli both have depots with no recruitment problems. Theres 40 plus drivers and conductors at Machynlleth Which is the same size as Llandovery. Holyhead has an ATW and a VTWC depot but it's only a town of 10K. Rural doesn't equal nothing there far from it.

That's because Machynlleth depot is full of cockneys seriously though, without going in to too much detail I understand recruitment at the more isolate depots is a bit more problematic than it is at the more urban locations. However, I fail to see how the costs of establishing and maintaining a new depot would ever be cheaper than the other options of taxiing staff, running ECS services or having staff work night turns (last one in, first one back out, with a PNB in the small hours in between, as is currently done with the last Cardiff Hereford of the day and it's return the next morning). It works at Pwllheli and Holyhead, but those examples are much more extreme than anywhere at the bottom end of the HOWL.

I bet the smokers will be happy that they can nip off for a quick puff!

Seriously, while it doesn't look good, I don't think it's quite as bad as it seems for most passengers. After all, not many will be using the trains for end to end journeys, and I cna remember having some waits at stations like Llanwrtyd back in the 1980's.

The current punters don't seem to mind too much it is true - they already knew what they've let themselves in for and the chance to have a break is always welcome, especially on services without trolleys - and it's not like there's ever all that many of them traveling through anyway (the last up service which has long waits at both Llanwrtyd and Llandrindod usually has passenger loads in single figures. The last time I worked it there were 2 passengers on it!).

However, it does make an already long journey longer and it can't be good for attracting new business.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That's because Machynlleth depot is full of cockneys seriously though, without going in to too much detail I understand recruitment at the more isolate depots is a bit more problematic than it is at the more urban locations. However, I fail to see how the costs of establishing and maintaining a new depot would ever be cheaper than the other options of taxiing staff, running ECS services or having staff work night turns (last one in, first one back out, with a PNB in the small hours in between, as is currently done with the last Cardiff Hereford of the day and it's return the next morning). It works at Pwllheli and Holyhead, but those examples are much more extreme than anywhere at the bottom end of the HOWL.

I cant see Llandovery being a recruitment issue which was what the posters question inferred. Stands to reason there could be some ATW Carmarthan Depot or GWR Swansea depot staff who live out that way anyway. I would imagine some GWR drivers would prefer a trundle on the Heart of Wales instead of trying to fight to keep a bi mode IEP to HST schedules on its underfloor engines

 

[Gareth Marston]

Operating a single track railway with passing loops is in itself difficult, especially if line speeds change (loops can end up being in the wrong place), and when you add in the constraints at either end of fitting in with other services it is tricky.

But I refuse to believe that having a train sitting for 42 minutes along the way is good operating practice. Those kind of waits mid-journey are excessive in the extreme.

The point I am making is that by adding the additional services, without providing additional rolling stock resources the WG made virtually all of the other journeys on the line slower - that's not exactly progress is it?

Quite frankly that's no surprise having seen how the Welsh Government operates (and from the inside too).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I cant see Llandovery being a recruitment issue which was what the posters question inferred. Stands to reason there could be some ATW Carmarthan Depot or GWR Swansea depot staff who live out that way anyway. I would imagine some GWR drivers would prefer a trundle on the Heart of Wales instead of trying to fight to keep a bi mode IEP to HST schedules on its underfloor engines

A good number of ATW Carmarthen drivers are (or were) ex Pantyffynon when there was a freight signing on point there - and who reside in the Towy Valley ?Ammanford area so Llandovry - or better Llandeilo would fit very well indeed.

Any speculation on what is now ATW using Landore when the IEP's kick in - or is this too sensitive ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

A good number of ATW Carmarthen drivers are (or were) ex Pantyffynon when there was a freight signing on point there - and who reside in the Towy Valley ?Ammanford area so Llandovry - or better Llandeilo would fit very well indeed.

Any speculation on what is now ATW using Landore when the IEP's kick in - or is this too sensitive ?

All depends on how prescriptive the WG has been or whether the bidders are genuinely allowed a free hand in coming up with proposals.

Its come out that the WG have acquired the defunct Forgemasters factory at Taffs Well as the location for the Traction Depot for South Wales Metro stock & a big P & R site.

Holyhead, Chester (non 175), Crewe,Shrewsbury, Pwllheli and Carmarthen are currently overnight stabling points only. Cardiff Canton, Chester (175 only) and Machynlleth are the only maintenance depots.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Devil , as ever, will be in the detail .....as far as HoW dedicated units berthed on the line are concerned (should that transpire) , there would be perhaps be awkward moves needed to reach a TMD for maintenance , as opposed to simple cleaning and maybe fuelling. All of whcih might add even more operational cost , compared to today where there are "interworking" options with the larger franchise operational plan.

Interesting point though about Taff's Well !

 

[nanstallon]

I can remember back in 1985, when trains crossed at the level crossing north of Llandod - if the train from Swansea was running late, people on the southbound train were stuck waiting, and couldn't get out. At least, in those days, you were allowed to smoke on the train!

 

[craigybagel]

Holyhead, Chester (non 175), Crewe,Shrewsbury, Pwllheli and Carmarthen are currently overnight stabling points only. Cardiff Canton, Chester (175 only) and Machynlleth are the only maintenance depots.

The depends on how you define "maintenance". Whilst it's true that every member of the fleet is allocated to one of the 3 depots you mentioned above (Chester for 175s, Machynlleth for 158s and Canton for everything else) light maintenance takes place at Crewe also. I seem to remember reading that every member of the 15x fleet needs to return to a maintenance depot every 2 days, which was defined as Canton Machynlleth or Crewe.

 

[Llanigraham]

It's been extended to all of Wales now! But if you live the wrong side of Knighton you have to pay full price. I know it's because it's the Welsh who are paying for it, (and why should they pay for the English to travel?) but it does seem rather cruel.

Damn!! I thought we were special in Powys!

And the Saxons can look after themselves.

 

[squizzler]

In an ideal world, I really do wonder what would happen if a service ran from Llandeilo > Ammanford > Pontarddulais > SDL > new station at Morriston M4 J45 (with P&R & bus link to hospital and Swansea city centre - same route) > new station to serve the new Llandarcy village > Port Talbot - with possible extension to Cardiff. It would certainly make travel from the aforementioned places to and from the east a lot quicker and more attractive than the present arrangement via Llanelli.

If trains were able to link Cardiff with the HoW via this more direct route, a lot more tourists would be attracted to do the HoW / Marches circuit of southern Wales than is the case now.
The quickest way this might happen now would be for the Fishguard flyer to be timed to stop at Llangennech & match a northbound train for Shrewsbury picking them up about 10 minutes later.

Interesting point regarding the Swansea District Line. The dogs breakfast of tracks in South Wales boggles the mind, especially with regard to the amount of industry that is left these days.

Could this network duplication allow us to consider light rail?

I have previously suspected that Craven arms could have a bay platform to turn back the HoW trains and keep them segregated from the national network. This could allow a light rail type operation on the HoW - but only if the other end could similarly be separated from the national network. Perhaps the Swansea District line become part of this same light rail network: terminating at heavy rail stations in both east and westerly ends (the route map forming an inverted "Y" shape). The network could perform dual roles using only D230 stock: as a Swansea commuter railway at 1/2 hour frequency, whilst every couple of hours a HoW service could proceed all the way up to Craven arms.

 

[edwin_m]

Not sure what benefit you expect from "light rail", given that light rail vehicles are more expensive than trains on a per seat basis, there's very little opportunity to save infrastructure cost and you don't propose to run anywhere off the existing network.

Class 230s aren't light rail. They might be an option for the HoWL but are rather hampered by the longish 75mph runs either end, where they could only do 60mph.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I can remember back in 1985, when trains crossed at the level crossing north of Llandod - if the train from Swansea was running late, people on the southbound train were stuck waiting, and couldn't get out. At least, in those days, you were allowed to smoke on the train!

bR put the loopl back in the station and reopened the 2nd platform God knows how many GRIP studies, third partty external stakeholder mtgs it would need these days let alone the cost.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Devil , as ever, will be in the detail .....as far as HoW dedicated units berthed on the line are concerned (should that transpire) , there would be perhaps be awkward moves needed to reach a TMD for maintenance , as opposed to simple cleaning and maybe fuelling. All of whcih might add even more operational cost , compared to today where there are "interworking" options with the larger franchise operational plan.

Interesting point though about Taff's Well !

Off thread but with Valleys Lines seemingly split in two in the latest "Transport Wales" pretend consultation some sort of Light Rail north of Cardiff looks on the cards.

I wouldn't be surprised if a overnight serving depot on the HOWL was a costed option that WG will ask for a lot depends on the Landore site one suspectslogically with the wires going to Swansea you need a DMU maintainence depot for west Wales close to it not at Canton 40 miles under the wires.

 

[craigybagel]

.

Class 230s aren't light rail. They might be an option for the HoWL but are rather hampered by the longish 75mph runs either end, where they could only do 60mph.

You might be surprised. Can't speak for the south but they barely get above 60 in the North anyway. The 230s may well have better acceleration, it wouldn't surprise me if they're quicker over those sections then the 153s.

 

[30907]

The 18:21 service from Swansea waits for 25 minutes at Llanwrtyd and for a further 17 minutes at Llandrindod.

Not sure why the wait at Llandrindod - but how many people are still on the train by Llanwrtyd? And was the loading on this train any different in the old timetable?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I wouldn't be surprised if a overnight serving depot on the HOWL was a costed option that WG will ask for a lot depends on the Landore site one suspectslogically with the wires going to Swansea you need a DMU maintainence depot for west Wales close to it not at Canton 40 miles under the wires.

Carmarthen is surely the best place for a West Wales depot. None of the lines are likely to be electrified any time soon and it already has a traincrew depot.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Carmarthen is surely the best place for a West Wales depot. None of the lines are likely to be electrified any time soon and it already has a traincrew depot.

Carmarthen was expanded under "sectorisation" for Regional Railways to get out of costs at Landore , when Canton was an integral part of Wales and West and Cardiff Railway Company , whilst Inter City GW majored at Landore for both normal and heavy exam workloads.

With a largely electric Canton (well that was the plan !) , Wales and Borders needs to find somewhere really for DMU's , not much point in building at Carmarthen a new depot for a good few million , when you have an excellent depot at Landore with a very skilled workforce. Train crew movements are easier to organise than skilled engineers.

 

[berneyarms]

Not sure why the wait at Llandrindod - but how many people are still on the train by Llanwrtyd? And was the loading on this train any different in the old timetable?

Well it certainly doesn't encourage any potential new usage does it?

It is an awful schedule - I know why it is the way it is (crossing with the train from Shrewsbury and the limited paths on the SW Main Line and the Marches Line) but it does not diminish how poor the schedule is.