Health & Safety gone mad coupled with poor customer service

[ffcphone]

Before Christmas, I was at Preston station awaiting my normal First TransPennine Express class 185 to take me home. The Summer 2008 timetable meant my train departed at 17:35 whereas at 17:40 a Northern Rail service departed and although it followed an identical route to Manchester, it was a local all-stopping service and was therefore slower. However, the point I want you to take forward is that there is a 5 minute window to dash from one platform to another if needs be.

So the class 185 rolls in as per normal, on time, as I recall. Passengers alight and passengers (including me) board. However, we don't go anywhere.

Next thing I notice the conductor outgoing (staff change at Preston) is talking to the incoming conductor and pointing at the platform-side last rear passenger window which looks to have a crack in it. I'm adjacent to it albeit on the opposite side so I go over and run my hand over it. Can't feel a thing. Whilst the train is still stationary, I go outside to the platform and run my hand over the window there. Can hardly feel anything. The window has shattered slightly and the conductor advises immediately prior to Preston some kids had thrown something at the train and hence the window.

I'm no glazier but there was no missing glass nor any deep scratches/cuts etc. If that was my car I'd have been happy to drive home on the motorway.

However, Virgin Trains platform staff (in their comedy red outfits) now join the two TPE staff in discussing the window. Lots of pointing, scratching of heads. The 17:40 Northern Rail service has by now arrived and departed and we're still at Preston, train fully loaded and ready to depart, up fast green signal displaying.

Eventually, the WHOLE TRAIN is withdrawn from service due to the window! Apparently health and safety concerns mean they aren't happy the window will remain intact passing turbulence/etc.

I suggest to the conductor why not "rope off" the last quarter of the affected carriage thereby allowing passengers to sit in 2.75 coaches. Definite no in case window comes in.

I suggest why not take carriage 3 out of public use altogether and at least allow passengers to use 2 coaches.

No. Take the whole train out of service instead and leave us all at Preston station with best part of half an hour until next train.

I suggested it may have been useful and possibly even polite to let passengers know earlier so we could have got the local stopping Northern Rail service. Apparently the decision had not been made then!

Health & Safety really annoys me. Years ago British Rail wouldn't have batted an eyelid at a slightly damaged window. Now, coupled with the fact it took about 5 staff, a phone call and lots of head scratching to make the decision, a train load of passengers found themselves having to wait.

Oh and once taken out of service the train naturally set off to Manchester!

Really infuriates me that.

I emailed FTPE customer relations who confirmed the decision had been taken to take the train completely out of service. I suggested taking carriage 3 out of service but my suggestion was interpreted as being decoupling carriage 3 and I got a lecture back about how it was not possible to simply remove a carriage because they have to run in 3s....yawn yawn do they think I'm stupid!

Anyways, anyone else got any quality incidents to report!

F

 

[westcoaster]

im not sure about 185's but on 350's it is not possible to lock a carriage out of use, the internal doors can be locked open but not shut, also its not possible to lock doors out of use either if this includes locking the last or first set of doors on either side of the train due to escape routes( thats from the rule book), so you are left with no choice but to cancel the train unless you can find a competant person to stop people entering the affected carriage.

also there is no telling what could happen to the window if it is cracked, a bumpy bit of track and the crack might grow, also turbulance from passing trains can and has caused more damage and even windows that are smashed falling to bits( these bits might fall and hit people working on or about the track), even though the window is double glased its still safer to knock out the affected window or cancel the train.

 

[GB]

Without obviously being there and seeing it first hand it is hard to comment. But all though you could feel nothing either side, it is possible that the windows integrity had been compromised. Which if was the case, it is entirely possible that pressure could have had a further negative affect when the train was at speed.

However, the rule book does cater for such scenarios and locking the affected carridge off to public use is within the remit of the rule book....or at least it was.

 

[driver9000]

The crew were only carrying out Rulebook instructions Im afraid. Even in BR days the rulebook contained instructions relating to broken bodyside windows which were pretty similar to todays instructions, none of us wants to see our passengers hurt especially not by broken glass being blown into the saloon.

If a double glazed window is smashed or cracked (a window is considered smashed with a crack longer than 80mm) then the vehicle must be locked out of use, you dont mention if it was an end or centre car involved and the guard must ride in the affected vehicle. If its just the outer pane an emergency film must be fitted and the speed restricted to 100mph. If when its been reported to the signalbox and TPE control and they make the descion to remove the train from service then its out of the traincrews hands and the platform staff have no say in it at all. In this day and age of compensation culture everyone errs on the side of caution a little more than in days gone by - not just the railways either!!

The guard coming off the train needs to report any defects he is aware of to the guard getting on the train, the platform staff have no say in the desicion regarding train movements with defects, they want the train gone too!! The phone call would have been to report the incident to TPE control who would have instructed the crew to remove the train from service. As for it heading for Manchester - you cant see the junction from Preston station, lots of places can be accessed from Preston TPE have their main depot at Ardwick in Manchester though.

 

[glynn80]

They normally use tempered glass in train windows. If broken it will usually shatter into small fragments instead of sharp shards when broken. But due to the balanced stresses in the glass, damage to the glass will eventually result in the glass shattering into thumbnail sized pieces. The glass is most susceptible to breakage due to damage to the edge of the glass where the tensile stress is the greatest, but shattering can also occur in the event of a hard impact in the middle of the glass pane or if the impact is concentrated (for example, striking the glass with a point).

So although the window may have seemed completely safe, we don't really know how much stress was placed due to the fracture on the window. Its difficult to say what decision to take these days.

 

[O L Leigh]

Driver9000 is entirely correct.

Generally only the outer skin gets smashed leaving the inner skin intact. In this situation the broken pane will be knocked out at a staffed location to remove the possibility of it blowing out and showering a platform full of people with shards of glass. However, if the inner skin is also damaged things get a whole lot more interesting. If the guard cannot lock-out an individual vehicle or there isn't another competent person on board to mind the damaged vehicle allowing the guard to carry out his/her duties, then the entire unit will be pulled.

You may think it's H&S gone mad, but there we are. We have lots of rules that the travelling public may think are potty but are there with good reason to ensure your safety.

O L Leigh

 

[ffcphone]

Thanks for all your replies which seem to suggest I reacted unduly harshly to the situation and to anyone reading this connected with the decision making process, I can only apologise.

In my own perfect world I didn't see why the conductor didn't take coach 3 (rear coach) out of service and stand at the inter-coach doors physically blocking the way to stop anyone going into the affected coach. We've discussed elsewhere selective door opening which may or may not have helped in this scenario too.

However, I appreciate the conductor would have to move forwards to one of the sets of doors in the middle car to unlock the doors etc and whilst not "guarding" entry into coach 3 some idiot would not doubt have tried to get in at the precise moment the window might have blown in.

An example of another "disease" or American "friends" gave us - compensation culture/litigation!

Of course, if our kids were brought up properly there wouldn't have been something thrown at the train in the first place but don't get me started on that one!

F