Headwinds on a Flight

[Peter Mugridge]

True, But at this time of night I'm too idle

Snap!

If I remember I'll try and dig it up tomorrow unless someone else does so first.

 

[Old Timer]

Snap!

If I remember I'll try and dig it up tomorrow unless someone else does so first.

Fuel consumption will depend upon loading factors, the weight of the fuel needed to cover emergency fuel, headwinds and obviously flight level. If however you work on a burn rate of roughly between 750-850 gallons/hr you will be in the right area.

The Netherlands AMS to New York JFK is 5450Km and the duration is between 8h10 and 8h45.

Sorry about the mix of imperial/metric.

Further info, latest price for Jet A1 fuel is USD76.00 per barrel.

A barrel is 34.9723 Imperial gallons or 158.9873 Litres



Ummm

This just popped up.

Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) -- An Airbus A340 operated by Air France was halted in Boston in mid November after about 30 screws were found to be missing from a protective panel, Agence France-Presse reported, citing an internal union bulletin.
An unidentified spokesman for Air France confirmed the incident to AFP and said that an enquiry is taking place. The spokesman added that flight safety wasn’t compromised, according to AFP.
The plane had recently undergone maintenance in Xiamen in China, AFP reported.

 

[WestCoast]

This just popped up.

Hope this isn't along the same lines as the Ryanair 'incident' which was standard procedure. Although, reading that short report it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[Old Timer]

Hope this isn't along the same lines as the Ryanair 'incident' which was standard procedure. Although, reading that short report it doesn't seem to be the case.

Cannot say to be honest, only just picked this one up, but once again Air France and cost-cutting safety issues accompany one-another.

I really cannot comprehend how KLM allowed themselves to become tied up with these cowboys, their whole approaches to safety and operations are so polar as indeed are the attitudes of the cabin crew.

I recently got bumped off a flight to AMS because of fog, and the very nice KLM desk clerk asked me if I would like to do an alternative to destination via Air France to CDG or another airline. Her knowing smile said it all when I said, "if it isn't you, then its another airline".

 

[WestCoast]

I really cannot comprehend how KLM allowed themselves to become tied up with these cowboys, their whole approaches to safety and operations are so polar as indeed are the attitudes of the cabin crew.

I recently got bumped off a flight to AMS because of fog, and the very nice KLM desk clerk asked me if I would like to do an alternative to destination via Air France to CDG or another airline. Her knowing smile said it all when I said, "if it isn't you, then its another airline".

I share similar feelings about Iberia and BA. Iberia's service both on the ground and in the sky leaves a lot to be desired. The long-haul fleet is very tatty. I don't know about their safety procedures, although they have a much better record than Air France.

 

[Old Timer]

I share similar feelings about Iberia and BA. Iberia's service both on the ground and in the sky leaves a lot to be desired. The long-haul fleet is very tatty. I don't know about their safety procedures, although they have a much better record than Air France.

I would have no worries about BA, although the attitude of their cabin crew, even to frequent flyer members, was what drove me away. So I would fly with them IF I had to.

I cannot comment on Iberia but I would hope that they have the same ethos and safety culture that BA have otherwise this will be a marriage made in hell.

With regards to cabin crew I have always found KLM to be excellent, they always give you the sort of smile that you know is genuine, and you even get them stop and TALK to you !

Not found any of the others I have used - BM/BMI Baby/Flybe/Lufthansa/Quantas to be anywhere near as friendly to the same degree. I have to say that on the Quantas flight the male flight attendants looked more feminine than the women - must be a Quantas thing.

The Asian airlines Royal Thai/Singapore are very good, the South American ones TAM/TAP/Go/Varig/Aerolinas Argentinas always seem to have female flight attendants who appear to be selected for their ability to wear a uniform one size too small, especially the blouses ! The TAM girls were actually very distracting !

The FSU airline flight attendants always seem to either be of the type that would appear to be the type that would be much happier with a syringe and you tied to a chair in a KGB office somewhere, or are so nice as to be obviously open cages leading to the receipt of the subsequent photographs delivered by hand by a very nice man in a dark suit and a trilby who is very concerned that they do not "accidentally" reach the wrong hands !

 

[flymo]

Just FYI, There is a lot of info out there regarding the North Atlantic Oceanic tracks and the winds thereon. The tracks do vary daily and intra-daily dependng on the reported wind data.

Below are a link and a picture showing the North Atlantic tracks and the wind data at FL340 (~34,000ft) for Dec 10 although this data may change as it is updated online. Makes interesting reading (well it does if you, like me, are interested in that sort of thing).

Wind data and visualisation is available from http://jetvision.de/nattracks.shtml The green tracks are Westbound, the blue ones eastbound. Please note again this info will change daily.

The picture below is one made using NATPLOT, a freeware track plotter using any freely available text fie of the track data.



All good stuff.

 

[Hydro]

the South American ones TAM/TAP/Go/Varig/Aerolinas Argentinas always seem to have female flight attendants who appear to be selected for their ability to wear a uniform one size too small, especially the blouses ! The TAM girls were actually very distracting !
!

*furiously starts booking flights*

 

[Butts]

*furiously starts booking flights*

Time I paid a visit to South America again - what an enlightened recruitment policy, should be extended to other airlines

 

[Old Timer]

Time I paid a visit to South America again - what an enlightened recruitment policy, should be extended to other airlines

Too many Airbus there for my liking.

If you go try Azul Linhas Aereas Brasileiras, nice flight attendants for you as well and NO Airbus.

Here's a taste for you.

 

[DarloRich]

All i know about headwinds on a flight are that i flew back form Glasgow on Thursday (1505 flight, left at 1900!) and did not know that a plan could flex that much! I know they trun into the wind to generate lift to take off and also to land but this was insane! The seat belt sign was on the entire trip and the aircraft was not straight in any axis for the journey!

For someone who doesnt like take off or landing it was an experiance!

 

[WestCoast]

With regards to cabin crew I have always found KLM to be excellent, they always give you the sort of smile that you know is genuine, and you even get them stop and TALK to you !

They do have some very nice crew, but I don't like their long-haul economy. It's 10-abreast on a 777 (where most airlines use 9), and I have found their catering to be quite sub-standard both in terms of quantity and quality. However, I cannot comment on their premium classes of service. I think they're a good airline, but I wouldn't go further than that.

As far as European airlines go, I prefer Lufthansa and Swiss personally. I'd rate Swiss as the best European airline.

 

[Old Timer]

All i know about headwinds on a flight are that i flew back form Glasgow on Thursday (1505 flight, left at 1900!) and did not know that a plan could flex that much! I know they trun into the wind to generate lift take off and land but this was insane! The seat belt sign was on the entire trip and the aircraft was not straight in any axis for the journey!

For someone who doesnt like take off or landing it was an experiance!

Watch This clip then.

A 777 can flex up to 10 feet in normal conditions I believe, and up to 28 feet before it will break.

If you dont like turbulence dont fly the South Atlantic routes !

 

[DarloRich]

Watch This clip then.

A 777 can flex up to 10 feet in normal conditions I believe, and up to 28 feet before it will break.

If you dont like turbulence dont fly the South Atlantic routes !

I think that was less that i saw on Thursday. Wing flex is ok but It was the body flex, especially on the ground, that i found amazing!

I dont mind turbulence at all ( as long as you have you belt on!) i just dont like take off and landing!

 

[WestCoast]

I dont mind turbulence at all ( as long as you have you belt on!) i just dont like take off and landing!

Out of interest, what aspects of the take off and landing sequences do you dislike?

I know someone who was terrified of flying completely, however she attended an intense 'fear-of-fying course' and is now reasonably happy to fly.

 

[DarloRich]

Out of interest, what aspects of the take off and landing sequences do you dislike?

I know someone who was terrified of flying completely, however she attended an intense 'fear-of-fying course' and is now reasonably happy to fly.

Most crashes seem to occur on take off and landing, and i think at that stage you are going to know about it! I think it is looking to much into the statistics , documnetaries, articles and the theory of flight.

I think a lot of it is not being able to see what is going on. When i have been "up front" i have been fine!

 

[Old Timer]

They do have some very nice crew, but I don't like their long-haul economy. It's 10-abreast on a 777 (where most airlines use 9), and I have found their catering to be quite sub-standard both in terms of quantity and quality. However, I cannot comment on their premium classes of service. I think they're a good airline, but I wouldn't go further than that.

As far as European airlines go, I prefer Lufthansa and Swiss personally. I'd rate Swiss as the best European airline.

Well their seat width is generally comparable with many long haul airlines and better than a lot, including Swiss Air, for example.

That said they have the biggest seat pitch at 35" second only to Thai who are at 36". Pretty much every other European airline on the North Atlantic has a pitch of 32"/31". Personally I would go for pitch everytime as seat width is less critical, and I can get a 14" Timeline X extended battery life laptop in their without problem.

 

[WestCoast]

Well their seat width is generally comparable with many long haul airlines and better than a lot, including Swiss Air, for example.

That said they have the biggest seat pitch at 35" second only to Thai who are at 36". Pretty much every other European airline on the North Atlantic has a pitch of 32"/31". Personally I would go for pitch everytime as seat width is less critical, and I can get a 14" Timeline X extended battery life laptop in their without problem.

Where do you get 35" ptich for KLM from? It's 31" for Economy, plus 10-abreast seating does reduce seat width slightly. It doesn't have a major effect, but it's noticeable that more people are crammed in, when compared to the likes of BA, Singapore Airlines, Malaysia e.t.c who have 9-abreast seating on a 777.

KLM Boeing 777-200 facts
Wingspan: 60.90 m
Length: 63.70 m
Cruising speed: 900 km/h
Max. range: 13.400 km
Max. passengers: 318
Average seat pitch
World Business Class: 60 inch
Economy Class: 31 inch
Economy Comfort zone: 35 inch

Unless you're seated in the 'Comfort Zone' in which case KLM will seem very comfortable for economy.

 

[Old Timer]

..i just dont like take off and landing!

Oh be fair ! Dont take the fun away !

There's nothing to better than the anticipation of an engine failure, or a bird strike in the climb out, and of course the loss of hydraulics on the glide path !

 

[DarloRich]

Oh be fair ! Dont take the fun away !

There's nothing to better than the anticipation of an engine failure, or a bird strike in the climb out, and of course the loss of hydraulics on the glide path !

Or the computer going wrong and turning off the good engine following the bad engine breaking down thus converting your expensive plane into a brick!

yes that is fun, but i would rather i wasnt then smeared all over the runway like strawberry jam!

 

[Old Timer]

Where do you get 35" ptich for KLM from? .

777-300 ER long haul economy comfort class.

 

[WestCoast]

777-300 ER long haul economy comfort class.

..which you must have elite frequent flyer status for or be willing to pay up to 150 euros extra per segment for (providing there are seats available in that class). If not, you have a 31 inch pitch in economy. You can't compare apples with oranges.

United Airlines also have 'economy plus', a similar service offered over the Atlantic, which offers up to 36 inches of legroom.

 

[Old Timer]

Or the computer going wrong

That is why I avoid Airbus if in any way possible. Boeing use a different method of Fly By Wire which would stop that happening.

Or the computer going wrong and turning off the good engine following the bad engine breaking down thus converting your expensive plane into a brick!

I dont think that has happened yet, there have ben many instances where Airbus a/c have had the flght management computer either malfunction or come out of auto due to spurious data input - as in AF447.

The BM flight which crashed at Kegworth and of which you may be thinking had the wrong engine shut down manually due to human error.

..which you must have elite frequent flyer status for or be willing to pay up to 150 euros extra per segment for (providing there are seats available in that class). If not, you have a 31 inch pitch in economy. You can't compare apples with oranges.

Of course, fortunately for me I am a frequent flyer.

Of course seat width and pitch are the price we all pay for wanting cheap flights these days.

Are you in the airline industry, or just a flyer like me ?

 

[WestCoast]

Are you in the airline industry, or just a flyer like me ?

Just a curious flyer. Although, some members of my family have worked in avaition at what was KLM UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course seat width and pitch are the price we all pay for wanting cheap flights these days.

Absolutely, I agree. It's good that some airlines offer the chance of more legroom, I know KLM and United have options over the Atlantic, I am not sure about others.

 

[DarloRich]

No i was speaking in a hypothetical maner about the computer failure. You have to put a lot of trust in the electronics!

 

[Old Timer]

No i was speaking in a hypothetical maner about the computer failure. You have to put a lot of trust in the electronics!

Yes, absolutely agree. I really do not like the Airbus system where in effect the pilots now only monitor the computers. The flying controls are only designed to let the pilot fly the plane straight and level in order to reset the computers, and even that is a recent modification following AF447. The system will NOT let a pilot fly the a/c outside of what the computer believes are the safe parameters. The a/c was never designed to be flown by hand whereas the Boeing series retain the direct FBW controls which can over-ride the FMC, and which itself can be shut down by switch much quicker.

 

[DarloRich]

The problem for me is that most of my flights tend ot be internal or short haul no frills types which tends to mean Easy Jet (Luton being the closest airport). I try not to think about the Airbus if i can avoid it.................

 

[WestCoast]

The problem for me is that most of my flights tend ot be internal or short haul no frills types which tends to mean Easy Jet (Luton being the closest airport). I try not to think about the Airbus if i can avoid it.................

Ryanair fly Boeings...

Even with the debate about Airbus (which I won't enter into as I'm not that knowledgeable about the technical side), I always think it depends on how much trust you have in airmanship, there are many pro-Airbus system opinions as well if you read avaition literature from experienced pilots and industry insiders. Airbus is not less safe than Boeing according to the statistics. From a passenger point of view, Airbus generally offers a more spacious cabin environment on the A320 series, when compared against the 737 NG series.

 

[Old Timer]

Ryanair fly Boeings...

Even with the debate about Airbus (which I won't enter into as I'm not that knowledgeable about the technical side), I always think it depends on how much trust you have in airmanship, there are many pro-Airbus system opinions as well if you read avaition literature from pilots and industry insiders. Airbus is not less safe than Boeing according to the statistics. From a passenger point of view, Airbus generally offers a more spacious cabin environment on the A320 series, when compared against the 737 NG series.

True but when you then compare the fact that after the 1998 Paris aircrash, both the FDR and the CVR were removed from the site by Airbus and were switched with different ones, and the original ones were subsequently opened and parts of the tape removed, and then look at the continuing issues with the flight management system which Airbus/Air France have been very reluctant to admit to.

A similar incident to that of AF447 occurred on the same route in the ITCZ earlier this year, but instead of the a/c being taken out of use, it was sent to Africa on a series of operations by which time the critical data could not be recovered. The incident was also not reported and did not come to light until someone leaked out the information.

There are also questions still outstanding as to why the Brazillian Navy were able to very quickly locate the area where the wreckage was, but this was disputed and no search was properly made until after the expected battery life of the FDR/CVR had expired. It turns out later that a french nuclear submarine located these boxes within a few days but the signal was refuted as being from Porpoises. Only problem with that is that Porpoises inhabit the North Atlantic not the South Atlantic.

There are still too many unaswered questions about AF447 and about how search and recovery operations were carried out.

 

[GB]

Off topic question: If you paid the extra for economy plus/premium economy what would you do or what would your reaction be if the people behind you told you not put your seat all the way back?