Headbolt Lane progress updates

[mcnw35282]

The gaps in the fencing on the bridge were just wide enough to take a photo through…but you’re right, it is a fair distance away.

To me, the platforms all look roughly the same length. If the Manchester bound platform is smaller, perhaps it’s intentional. When trains towards Kirkby get to Wigan Wallgate, the guard locks the rear 2 carriages out of use due to 4 cars not fitting at Upholland and Rainford. Perhaps it’s easier to just carry on using only 2 cars?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The gaps in the fencing on the bridge were just wide enough to take a photo through…but you’re right, it is a fair distance away.

To me, the platforms all look roughly the same length. If the Manchester bound platform is smaller, perhaps it’s intentional. When trains towards Kirkby get to Wigan Wallgate, the guard locks the rear 2 carriages out of use due to 4 cars not fitting at Upholland and Rainford. Perhaps it’s easier to just carry on using only 2 cars?

If at Headbolt Lane, Rainford and Upholland, a 4-car set has the rear two carriages locked out of use, surely a 2-car set would suffice, releasing the other 2-car set to be used elsewhere.

 

[ste238]

Last couple if times I have been on the line all 4 carriages where in use just had to get off at the top end of the back 2 cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If at Headbolt Lane, Rainford and Upholland, a 4-car set has the rear two carriages locked out of use, surely a 2-car set would suffice, releasing the other 2-car set to be used elsewhere.

A 2-car set doesn't suffice for the Atherton line. It'd be like running 2-car sets to Ormskirk from Liverpool - it's a suburban metro style line, albeit diesel. If it was just a Headbolt to Wigan shuttle a single 153 would be more than sufficient, but it's not. Southport is similar (but busier than it was). Shunting units off is faff and takes time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 May 2023 ==

I'd guess it's a matter of perspective, I'd guess the image in question (this one?) was taken heavily zoomed in from the small bridge at 53.492895, -2.878900, 345m away. Although the most recent satellite view I have has a shelter over it, was this taken by drone?

Although even factoring that in it does look quite small, hmm.

Can't see it being shorter than 4x20m, but also see the Marston Vale

I'm surprised the Wigan platform is a proper permanent one, I thought they'd use a cheaper modular one on the basis that through running to Wigan is not at all unlikely at some future point, and it wouldn't be needed then.

 

[Brian1947]

Looking at the Knowsley BC planning website the operational length of the Wigan platform is 150m, slightly longer than the Liverpool platform which is quoted as 139m.

looking at that photo again there is an apparent absence of lighting on the Wigan platform. Assume they will be installed by winter!

 

[mcnw35282]

If at Headbolt Lane, Rainford and Upholland, a 4-car set has the rear two carriages locked out of use, surely a 2-car set would suffice, releasing the other 2-car set to be used elsewhere.

I think this has been mentioned elsewhere. The traffic between Kirkby and Wigan doesn’t justify running a 4 car train.

Last couple if times I have been on the line all 4 carriages where in use just had to get off at the top end of the back 2 cars.

It’s happened occasionally when I’ve used it too…however, the majority of the time the guard has to get out of their cab and walk along the platform to open the doors. Many a time I’ve heard tutting because passengers have to move to the other set of doors! Another oddity was that from Upholland to Kirkby, the PIS kept saying “we are now approaching Orrell” as Pemberton was was the last station they could fully unlock all the doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this has been mentioned elsewhere. The traffic between Kirkby and Wigan doesn’t justify running a 4 car train.

However as Atherton does, it runs as a 4 car with half locked out due to short platforms at intermediates. Headbolt won't be short as reversing is complicated by not being able to accommodate the whole train.

 

[AMD]

Without trying to take this thread off topic..... the trains operate as 4 cars due to the route being Blackburn via Todmorden and the capacity demand that route has; and will remain as generally pairs of 150s for the foreseeable future. (Ideally it would be 195s with ASDO/SDO capability but there's not enough of them).

Another oddity was that from Upholland to Kirkby, the PIS kept saying “we are now approaching Orrell” as Pemberton was was the last station they could fully unlock all the doors.

The TrainFX system runs off the door cycle and GPS, it will have recognised the door release at Pemberton then GPS triggered the Orrell announcement, but the system doesn't step forward as it's waiting for the Orrell door release which never happens (Unless shortformed to a single unit).

With regards to Headbolt Lane (the whole purpose of this thread), it looks like a telephoto effect on the photos. The temporary metal fencing at the buffer stop end of the platform is quite condensed in the image.

 

[Liverpool 507]

It looks long enough to accommodate four coaches. Ormskirk’s diesel platform has recently been extended to accommodate four coaches.

Are the Merseyrail platforms able to take 8 coaches?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

If at Headbolt Lane, Rainford and Upholland, a 4-car set has the rear two carriages locked out of use, surely a 2-car set would suffice, releasing the other 2-car set to be used elsewhere.

That would only work if Wigan-Kirkby ran as a simple shuttle. But that would reduce passenger demand as the through service to Manchester is the one thing that stops people always driving to Wigan for their trains.

However as Atherton does, it runs as a 4 car with half locked out due to short platforms at intermediates. Headbolt won't be short as reversing is complicated by not being able to accommodate the whole train.

Yet the "old" platform at Kirkby had its limitations. 2x142 fitted just fine whereas 2x156 (unusual) had the Manchester end in the overgrown part of the platform. Traincrew simply found ways to deal with it.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Yet the "old" platform at Kirkby had its limitations. 2x142 fitted just fine whereas 2x156 (unusual) had the Manchester end in the overgrown part of the platform. Traincrew simply found ways to deal with it.

I don't think I've seen a double 156 for quite a while, I assume even a 150+156 is a big of a tight squeeze, but still fine?

 

[Brian1947]

Looking at the image in post #299 (for which many thanks), it appears that the terminating Liverpool platforms curve to the right (North), as if to avoid the arrival and departure siding for the freight depot. Old maps show that it previously had connections both ways and its own sidings, for the ROF and later Kirkby industrial estate.

Also, the "projecting" Wigan platform appears to be precisely in line to serve the down line from Liverpool and so would be in the right place for a future (and ideal) through, 2-platform station. Perhaps this is why it is a permanent 150m long.

The Liverpool terminating platforms seem curved, unusual in a new station, as this can cause gaps. The freight siding looks rather close to, or actually on, the up (Liverpool) track bed, so it may have dictated the shape of the Liverpool platforms, as it is c600m long and might be expensive to move.

Perhaps others could comment further?

WAO

At the end of March when construction of the platforms must have well advanced I did a railtour that took us right into the waste facility. Access to it has not changed, and I doubt there is any need to change it. I do not know the length of the siding but our train was 12 or 13 Mark II’s and two class 60’s TnT.

It looks long enough to accommodate four coaches. Ormskirk’s diesel platform has recently been extended to accommodate four coaches.

Are the Merseyrail platforms able to take 8 coaches?

As far I know the extension at Ormskirk is to allow the Liverpool platform to hold 2 x 777.

At 138m the Headbolt Lane platforms are not long enough to hold 2 x 777. The dimensions were taken from the original planning application; there may have been amendments since then.

 

[ste238]

I don't think I've seen a double 156 for quite a while, I assume even a 150+156 is a big of a tight squeeze, but still fine?

The last service I caught out of Kirkby was a 150/156 and the driver and 1 door was past the fence in the overgrown area.

 

[zwk500]

I don't think I've seen a double 156 for quite a while, I assume even a 150+156 is a big of a tight squeeze, but still fine?

As the end of the branch is one train in section there's no need to fit behind a signal.

 

[mcnw35282]

At 138m the Headbolt Lane platforms are not long enough to hold 2 x 777. The dimensions were taken from the original planning application; there may have been amendments since then.

How much extra room is needed to couple two units together? Wikipedia has the length of a 777 at just under 65 metres...

 

[D821]

Remember the end carriages of the 777s have one door in the centre per side, the middle one has two per side.

 

[childwallblues]

I don't think I've seen a double 156 for quite a while, I assume even a 150+156 is a big of a tight squeeze, but still fine?

A pair of 156 (459 and 412) were on today.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

A pair of 156 (459 and 412) were on today.

so there is, guess I must've missed that when I checked on RTT earlier

 

[AMD]

As the end of the branch is one train in section there's no need to fit behind a signal.

The issue (as was at Kirkby) was accommodating the train on the useable platform, anything of 4 car length involving a 156 was 'Long Train Short Platform' at Kirkby.

 

[Brian1947]

How much extra room is needed to couple two units together? Wikipedia has the length of a 777 at just under 65 metres...

Apologies, got my calculations totally wrong.

 

[Parjon]

This was previously discussed upthread and I believe the conclusion was that any future eastward Merseyrail extension from Headbolt Lane would be single track to Rainford. The buffer stops and walkway between the Wigan platform and the southern Liverpool platform would be removed and a footbridge constructed between the two Liverpool platforms (there is passive provision in the plans).

Fully confident in saying that there will be no further expansion along this line in our lifetimes.

Even if a future government were to become more amenable in principle to a Skelmersdale extension, the Liverpool CR authorities won't be risking scarce resources on something that has had the rug pulled out from under it.

If there is no BCR for an extension to Skem there's definitely nothing but expense for extension of services to Rainford. The government would have to commit to funding Skem in full before Wigan was agreed. Since the Skem money will never be offered nor asked for, there will also be no extension to Wigan.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's in real time trains as HBL Headbolt Lane, so I think that's the name they're sticking with.

As a matter of interest, with a head bolt being a type of fixing, would the name be any recognition of shipbuilding and engineering industries in that area?

 

[snowball]

As a matter of interest, with a head bolt being a type of fixing, would the name be any recognition of shipbuilding and engineering industries in that area?

When I see the word headbolt I always think of this cartoon of Laurie Taylor as Frankenstein's monster, though strictly speaking the bolt is through his neck:

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/sites/default/files/byline_photos/laurie-taylor.jpg

 

[WAO]

Fully confident in saying that there will be no further expansion along this line in our lifetimes.

Even if a future government were to become more amenable in principle to a Skelmersdale extension, the Liverpool CR authorities won't be risking scarce resources on something that has had the rug pulled out from under it.

If there is no BCR for an extension to Skem there's definitely nothing but expense for extension of services to Rainford. The government would have to commit to funding Skem in full before Wigan was agreed. Since the Skem money will never be offered nor asked for, there will also be no extension to Wigan.

Fully agree about a Skelmersdale extension. Most of the town would have a better journey going to Rainford or Upholland stations (if there were the road links) than a Concourse station, so no BCR. A pity it was ever raised.

What is very likely, if the 777s' batteries work is a through service to Wallgate. The present infrastructure is adequate and the timetable risk to Merseyrail of odd workings into a bay at Wallgate should be low.

That's what the layout of HBL should be judged against.

It should of course be called Simonswood (after Simonswood Hall) on the basis that a classier name attracts.

WAO

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Fully agree about a Skelmersdale extension. Most of the town would have a better journey going to Rainford or Upholland stations (if there were the road links) than a Concourse station, so no BCR. A pity it was ever raised.

How official was the refusal to proceed with the Skelmersdale extension last year?

 

[WAO]

I think that it was a case of "not proven" in that the BCR was not considered a justification. However the HBL development removes some of the cost, so if a better proposal arises...

The matter is discussed elsewhere and I don't want to stray far from the OP.

WAO

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Given Wigan to Manchester is currently having electrification works being done, there will come a time in the near future that Kirkby and Southport lines comes in to view for it. Why would Network Rain spend millions on electrification of the Kirkby line when Merseyrail have the answer at a fraction of the cost?

With regards to the mention of Wigan above, are the electrification works going to join the line to Wigan North Western station rather than to Wigan Wallgate station?

 

[zwk500]

With regards to the mention of Wigan above, are the electrification works going to join the line to Wigan North Western station rather than to Wigan Wallgate station?

Wigan-Bolton electrification. Construction updates only please

Construction has started. Vegetation clearance at Westhoughton. Here is the link to the original announcement thread: (now closed) Wigan to Bolton electrification officially given go ahead I will be home for 15 days at Xmas, so I will take some photos.

www.railforums.co.uk

Believe so yes, the bridge at the south end of Wallgate platforms is not being redone.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wigan-Bolton electrification. Construction updates only please

Construction has started. Vegetation clearance at Westhoughton. Here is the link to the original announcement thread: (now closed) Wigan to Bolton electrification officially given go ahead I will be home for 15 days at Xmas, so I will take some photos.

www.railforums.co.uk

Believe so yes, the bridge at the south end of Wallgate platforms is not being redone.

So that will rule out any onwards electrical connection to either of the lines to Southport or to Kirkby, as seemingly suggested in an earlier posting.

 

[zwk500]

So that will rule out any onwards electrical connection to either of the lines to Southport or to Kirkby, as seemingly suggested in an earlier posting.

They are still potential future options, but won't be part of this set of work. Using the 319s to get *something* up, rather than nothing happening because we can't do the whole lot.

Either way any Merseyrail extension would be with 777s on Battery, at least at first.