Hazards for Double-Deckers

[DD12]

Internal obstruction in depots.

Thanks TGW, - lets make that number 24 ( - "another own-goal !" ), and include bus station overhead obstacles as previously mentioned !

-- perhaps all bus depots that operate DDs, should have basket-ball hoops mounted on a wall at 14 feet, and 14 foot 6 inches high,
to be part of the training regime for DD drivers ?

 

[route101]

I always wonder how easy it is to topple a decker , do they have ballast to prevent that ?

 

[DD12]

I always wonder how easy it is to topple a decker , do they have ballast to prevent that ?

YES -- the downstairs passengers ! -
- that's why they introduced the concessionary passes for OAPs !

But seriously, there used to be a compulsory TILT-TEST for each new type of DD, but how effective that would be for ageing, modified, badly maintained DDs, I do not know !

 

[PermitToTravel]

or perhaps doing an emergency stop while a passenger is negotiating the staircase.

This is mostly fine - deceleration pushes passengers to the front of the bus, and thus *up* the staircase. It's pretty easy to keep your balance in this scenario

An emergency stop in reverse (in a bus station for example) could be very dangerous though

 

[DD12]

This is mostly fine - deceleration pushes passengers to the front of the bus, and thus *up* the staircase. It's pretty easy to keep your balance in this scenario

An emergency stop in reverse (in a bus station for example) could be very dangerous though

Do all (or most) modern DDs have forward-ascending staircases ? -
the DDs I used to travel to school on (50 years ago ) had rearwards ascending stairs in a "tight" C-shape or U-shape, so I think I felt pretty safe when thrown forwards against the structure during heavy breaking (IF that ever happened ?) !?!?

 

[Tom B]

There was an accident a few years ago in London (IIRC) where building worms meant a 3B boom lift was being used. The knuckle of this protruded above traffic, then a double decker came past. I believe it seriously damaged the decker and the MEWP operator, who was not wearing a harness, was killed.

Edit: the MEWP operator survived with serious injury. Picture of decker here and link to the story.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tims/5497688162

 

[Jonny]

There was an accident a few years ago in London (IIRC) where building worms meant a 3B boom lift was being used. The knuckle of this protruded above traffic, then a double decker came past. I believe it seriously damaged the decker and the MEWP operator, who was not wearing a harness, was killed.

Edit: the MEWP operator survived with serious injury. Picture of decker here and link to the story.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tims/5497688162

There was an incident where a platform operator was killed in Manchester though, back in 2006...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7490713.stm

 

[PeterC]

Do all (or most) modern DDs have forward-ascending staircases ? -
the DDs I used to travel to school on (50 years ago ) had rearwards ascending stairs in a "tight" C-shape or U-shape, so I think I felt pretty safe when thrown forwards against the structure during heavy breaking (IF that ever happened ?) !?!?

Not so much the direction but I have found that I could keep my balance far beter on the older steep and tightly curved staircases than the predomenantly straight stairs on modern buses.

 

[MotCO]

Not so much the direction but I have found that I could keep my balance far beter on the older steep and tightly curved staircases than the predomenantly straight stairs on modern buses.

Same here - but presumably the new design is 'safer' in the eyes of the powers that be.

 

[deltic1989]

In my experiance the biggest hazard to any kind of bus is the fleshy, organic componant that tends to be installed behind the steering wheel. The same could be said for any moving vehicle really, so I'm not just pointing the finger at bus drivers.

On the subject of acsending the stairs, hard braking isn't really an issue, but whe the bus is running late and the driver takes off like a bat out of hell.........That can make for a very entertaining afternoon.

 

[Cowley]

On the subject of acsending the stairs, hard braking isn't really an issue, but whe the bus is running late and the driver takes off like a bat out of hell.........That can make for a very entertaining afternoon.

This reminded me of the school bus in Devon General days, as the driver slowed to a stop at Countess Wear on the Exeter bypass (on a Bristol VR) - there was one particular driver who was quite young (late twenties I reckon) who’d go like a bat out of hell from the preceding roundabout, and when as we all stood for our bus stop (and we knew what to expect), he’d get on the brakes as heavily as possible at the last minute, chuckling all the while, until about twenty of us were compacted and groaning against the windscreen. He’d then open the doors so that we all fell onto the pavement laughing.
We thought he was great though...
Those in the know would stand on one of the stairs to the upper deck and watch as everyone else got shunted at great speed into the crush.
Oh man, great memories.
Er is this relevant? What about the possibility of a pupil popping the windscreen out with his head?

 

[DD12]

On the subject of acsending the stairs, hard braking isn't really an issue, but whe the bus is running late and the driver takes off like a bat out of hell.........That can make for a very entertaining afternoon.

Unfortunately for a Ledbury (Herefordshire) man, about two years ago, it was worse than entertaining, - because he fell to his death as the DD pulled-away from the stop. - I don't know if the bus pulled-away in a straight-line, or whether it swung to the right.
(I never saw a follow-up news report).

 

[DD12]

We thought he was great though...
Those in the know would stand on one of the stairs to the upper deck and watch as everyone else got shunted at great speed into the crush.
Oh man, great memories.
Er is this relevant? What about the possibility of a pupil popping the windscreen out with his head?

I think the behaviour of school-children passengers should be number 25 on the list.
- Locally they managed to "pop-out" an upstairs side window on one occasion.

- I suspect that some drivers might sometimes be tempted into retaliatory behaviour !

 

[Strathclyder]

Plenty of low bridges in/around Glasgow for deckers to avoid, the bridge carrying the Ayrshire/Inverclyde/Paisley Canal Lines over Cook St out of Central Station in the Tradeston area being among the most infamous of these. At least 3 First Glasgow deckers have fallen victim to it in the past decade, two of which (a Royale-bodied Volvo Olympian in 2010 and a Wright Eclipse Gemini-bodied Volvo B7TL in 2009) had their roofs completely ripped off and a 3rd (a Enviro 500 in 2014) was partially decapitated. All were running dead either to/from the depot, so no passengers were injured in any of these incidents thankfully; the drivers were all properly shaken up (but otherwise fine) though! The Gemini & Enviro were both repaired and returned to service; not sure if the same could be said of the Royale, as the type was being withdrawn at the time of it's de-roofing.

 

[randyrippley]

Modern double decker designs have a tendency to be built with single piece windscreens.
Low flying pheasants can cause a danger to these.........a few years back one took out the entire windscreen on a new Enviro 400 between Lancaster and Preston. Driver on the next bus said it had come out of the gasket surround and dropped into the bus in one piece

 

[randyrippley]

"Evil No.23" -- The towing (recovery) of DDs !

A few years ago, I had the privilege of following a Volvo Citybus DD ( a.14 feet 10 inches high) which was being towed back to the depot.
It had it's front jacked-up high, and was "doing" about 20-25 MPH --
the back end was "rocking" - leaning alternately to the left and the right, and the thick overhanging branch of an old tree was just-ahead !!

-- I would have overtaken the outfit to try and stop it, but there was a queue of slow moving cars coming the other way,
and by some miracle it passed through ok !!

I hope you were following at a safe distance.......I'd have dropped back a long long way

 

[hassaanhc]

Trying to use the stairs on a moving Volvo B5LH is a nightmare. They have the Volvo I-Shift gearbox which is slow and clunky to change gears so it is easy to lose your balance if not careful. Seen it happen way more since my route started using those (cheers Metroline!). The single gear of an E400H is way smoother.

 

[BestWestern]

Have we had 'microfleets' yet? Apologies if it's already come up, if not - First Hants & Dorset maintain a couple of deckers at their Hoeford Depot in Fareham, maybe three of four I guess, VRs years ago, Olympians and more recently the inevitable sh*gged ex London Presidents that seem to haunt every Firstbus garage in the country! A couple of East Lancs B7s too, quite smart. Anyhow, back in Olympian days, they managed to lose two of them in the space of a few months under the same bride, next to Portchester railway station. Both were out of service, presumably their drivers simply forgot that they had the rare novelty of a decker that day! Can happen in any fleet of course, but the risk must increase somewhat when almost every day is a single decker day!

 

[DD12]

Have we had 'microfleets' yet? Apologies if it's already come up, if not - First Hants & Dorset maintain a couple of deckers at their Hoeford Depot in Fareham, maybe three of four I guess, VRs years ago, Olympians and more recently the inevitable sh*gged ex London Presidents that seem to haunt every Firstbus garage in the country! A couple of East Lancs B7s too, quite smart. Anyhow, back in Olympian days, they managed to lose two of them in the space of a few months under the same bride, next to Portchester railway station. Both were out of service, presumably their drivers simply forgot that they had the rare novelty of a decker that day! Can happen in any fleet of course, but the risk must increase somewhat when almost every day is a single decker day!

Thanks BestWestern -

Drivers forgetting they are in a DD, is in the list at number 13, but I think it probably should be No. 1 !!

If I were in charge of a bus company, I would want to introduce as many "things" as possible to try and remind the driver - -
There are an ever-increasing number of high-tech gadgets and systems for vehicles that DD bus manufacturers could build into new ones - - how about an LED (or two) mounted in the ceiling above the cab, that flickers occasionally to make the driver look up (but not crash !) ?

How about a very clear and visible "instruction" somewhere in front of the driver - "Stay on DOUBLE DECKER route !!" ?

 

[MotCO]

Thanks BestWestern -

Drivers forgetting they are in a DD, is in the list at number 13, but I think it probably should be No. 1 !!

If I were in charge of a bus company, I would want to introduce as many "things" as possible to try and remind the driver - -
There are an ever-increasing number of high-tech gadgets and systems for vehicles that DD bus manufacturers could build into new ones - - how about an LED (or two) mounted in the ceiling above the cab, that flickers occasionally to make the driver look up (but not crash !) ?

How about a very clear and visible "instruction" somewhere in front of the driver - "Stay on DOUBLE DECKER route !!" ?

Or how about a 'magic eye' which can detect low bridges in front and alert the driver by an audible warning?

 

[MotCO]

mart. Anyhow, back in Olympian days, they managed to lose two of them in the space of a few months under the same bride, next to Portchester railway station.

Poor bride

 

[DD12]

Parking of DDs in front of a height related hazard might deserve to go on the list at number 26 (?) --

Driver number one parks in front of hazard, and leaves the vehicle.
-- when the next driver gets into the cab, he cannot see the hazard (from the cab).

That might sound a bit silly, but there was a recent case reported in the media, where the driver pulled-away and something stronger than the bus penetrated the area above the drivers head and into front offside seat/ foot-well "upstairs".

This MAY have been a factor in a few DD accidents in Worcester's bus station (?)
- - if a low, jutting-out bit of building has got yellow and black "cross-hatching" or chevrons ON IT as a warning --
NEITHER of these might be visible from the cab when pulling away !!

Perhaps there should be procedures for drivers as they enter a DD ? --
How about - (1) Look UP at the front of the vehicle, to get a perspective, and estimate it's height.
(2) Look at way ahead to see if it's been parked in front of a hazard.
(3) Upon entering the cab, check the actual height (it's written there).

(Sorry if any of the above is "b*ll*ks" !!)

 

[DD12]

Or how about a 'magic eye' which can detect low bridges in front and alert the driver by an audible warning?

They already exist Mr.MotCo - - there was a brief feature in Route One magazine, some time ago, that showed a European or Scandanavian DD coach fitted with one, and of course there are front-collision-avoidance systems being fitted to some cars now, but there are all sorts of complications, as uber recently found out when their driverless car killed a woman in the USA.

 

[quarella]

On an open top in Weston-super-Mare and I am sure it was a Bristol VR in the early eighties there was an extremely heavy downpour bad enough for my father for the first time ever to take us downstairs. The water was cascading down the stairs and the driver's periscope was acting as a funnel. At the bus station he stomped off absolutely drenched. After a short delay we were transferred to an LH (Small single deck closed top) with a different driver to continue our journey. By this time the sun had come out.

At a recent vintage bus running day I was surprised how much easier I found the stairs on the older buses climbing towards the front on open platform vehicles or to the rear on rear engined vehicles. I think it must be that with longer treads you are now climbing along the bus instead of up or down around a central point and not trying to counteract the forces of acceleration and braking so much.

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks BestWestern -

Drivers forgetting they are in a DD, is in the list at number 13, but I think it probably should be No. 1 !!

If I were in charge of a bus company, I would want to introduce as many "things" as possible to try and remind the driver - -
There are an ever-increasing number of high-tech gadgets and systems for vehicles that DD bus manufacturers could build into new ones - - how about an LED (or two) mounted in the ceiling above the cab, that flickers occasionally to make the driver look up (but not crash !) ?

How about a very clear and visible "instruction" somewhere in front of the driver - "Stay on DOUBLE DECKER route !!" ?

All TfL buses have the iBus system fitted. This knows the heights of all the bridges in London. So long as it is on, even if the driver is not logged into a route, it will give 3 warnings as a low bridge is approached. Unfortunately it doesn't know high high the bus is, so goes off if a bus goes along a road that goes over a low bridge.

 

[DD12]

All TfL buses have the iBus system fitted. This knows the heights of all the bridges in London. So long as it is on, even if the driver is not logged into a route, it will give 3 warnings as a low bridge is approached. Unfortunately it doesn't know high high the bus is, so goes off if a bus goes along a road that goes over a low bridge.

Therefore the Hi-Tec device that "cried WOLF" is number 27 !
- if every time a driver takes a DD along that section of road (perhaps many times a day) the device "goes off",
he or she is going to become conditioned into ignoring it !
Thanks Mr.Deerfold.

 

[philthetube]

Is drivers being probided with maps on rail replacement work which route under low bridges number 28? Or just 1a?

 

[MotCO]

Thanks randy -- WIND - rushes in at number 20 !!

Another bus blown over was First's E400 33808 near Kings Lynn, during Storm Doris in February 2017, whilst on route X1

Source: The X1 Blog http://fecx1news.blogspot.co.uk/

 

[DunsBus]

Number 28 - low railway bridges immediately next to the depot.

This was the case with Eastern Scottish's New Street depot in Edinburgh, which was also the company's HQ. The combined depot/HQ complex took up most of the east side of New Street. At the bottom of New Street, where it meets Calton Road, is the bridge carrying the ECML into and out of Waverley. The depot had two entrances, one opposite East Market Street which was for single-deckers, and another one further down, next to the bridge, which was for double-deckers.

Woe betide any driver of a double-decker who either missed the lower entrance or, on exiting the depot, turned right instead of left. The penalty for striking the New Street bridge was instant dismissal - needless to say, a good few drivers at New Street found themselves sacked on the spot!

 

[DD12]

Is drivers being probided with maps on rail replacement work which route under low bridges number 28? Or just 1a?

Thanks Phil -- Let's go with No.1B for the list ! - - "Where's my map ?" - - is it not reasonable for an operator of DDs and tall coaches to provide their drivers with a map showing low bridges and suitable routes around them, when the tall vehicle is to be used on a diversion, private hire, rail-replacement and other examples ???