Hazards for Double-Deckers

[DD12]

.... to avoid !!

I would like to create a list here, of as many as possible of the height related hazards that can jeopardize double-deckers and tall coaches (etc). -- please add any you can think of !

1. Low bridges.
2. Low tree braches.
3. Leaning trees (because of strong winds for example).
4. Festival bunting, fairy lights, Xmas decorations etc.
5. Mobile hoists and ladders.
6. Overhanging parts of buildings, canopies etc.
7. Scaffolding (I once saw a DD that turned left at a junction and got it's side upstairs windows penetrated by scaffolding near the back -- IE towards the end of the manoeuvre --
I bet the scaffolding was not visible in the rear-view mirror ! (?)
7A. Almost the opposite of item 7 -- is "tail-swipe" -- front end swinging to the right when leaving a bus-stop, say.
With the trend towards longer rear overhangs on DDs, I expected to read reports of more trouble caused by this (?)

7B. High-Up hazards that are "hidden" in shadow (big contrast between bright lights and dark areas).
8. Leaning double-deckers that "make a big-deal" of modest road cambers, including in cities, towns, and villages (I saw an old Olympian do a dramatic lean quite recently -- the passengers were all upstairs).
9. Soft road edges (DDs serving villages and hamlets).
10. Uneven/ undulating road surfaces that "induce" the front wheels towards a hazard.
11. Diversions (via hazards !)
12. Private Hires ( - ditto !)
13. Driver forgetting he (or she) is in double-decker.
14. Driver starting duty in a single-decker but getting switched to a DD (etc).
15. Fastest route back to the depot at the end of the shift (via low bridge).
16. Driver thinking he (or she) is in a low-height DD, when it is in-fact a full-height DD.

17. Overhanging traffic lights and road signs in badly-designed, tight, road layouts.
18 +


"Your turn" --

 

[Typhoon]

Not really avoidable but ...
other vehicles. I was once in a packed double decker (stationary) on a narrow road when a passing lorry squeezed by taking some of the rubber window surrounds with it.

 

[randyrippley]

Stagecoach Ribble painted up a decker in a special yellow celebration livery (I think it was something like the celebration of Lancaster's millenium as a town)
The day it arrived, I and the driver of the bus I was in watched aghast as it attempted a three point turn in Lancaster bus station and rammed the rear of the top deck into the station canopy..........made a hell of a mess.
New roof needed (East Lancs did it even though it was an Alexander Olympian) and a new duplicate paint job

City Council were not amused - they'd paid for it

 

[randyrippley]

Another issue is driver mental health
Lancaster City Transport once had a driver who suffered a breakdown, stole a decker and took it for a ride, tried to take in under the railway bridge at Low Bentham. You can guess the rest


Stagecoach / Ribble also lost two roofs in a year on the same rail bridge in Skerton.
Basically due to mixing single and double deckers on services which shared a large part of the route, with the singles going under the bridge and the deckers diverging. The drivers just lost the plot of what service they were on, mainly because they were made to shift routes mid shift

 

[MotCO]

.... to avoid !!
1. Low bridges.

1A Arched bridges - doubledeckers need to pass under the central part of the bridge.

 

[DD12]

Yes ! ("1A") - There is one near where I live which has markings that imply 14 feet 6 inches clearance - in the middle of the road, whereas 14 foot 6 inch double-deckers frequently pass under it well to the left and well to the right (IE close to the kerbs, in the normal way) --
the traffic is often heavy, and the only time I've seen a DD or tall lorry take a central approach is when there's nothing coming the other way.
( - there are road signs warning of oncoming traffic in the middle of the road).
-- the lowest points of the arch (LHS and RHS) appear to me to be LOWER than 14 foot 6, so I'm confused now as to whether the signage should be changed to show the lowest height to avoid an impact ?!?!?

Thanks MotCo.

 

[hassaanhc]

.... to avoid !!

8. Leaning double-deckers that "make a big-deal" of modest road cambers, including in cities, towns, and villages (I saw an old Olympian do a dramatic lean quite recently -- the passengers were all upstairs).

Modern Volvos are just as bad, especially B5LHs with their very short wheelbase. Sometimes when 75% or more loaded the front corners can ground on the road when going around even slight bends, let alone turning somewhere.

 

[johnw]

Simple, buy low height vehicles like Stagecoach and Arriva do. I think even First Bristol and what was Western National are doing so, I’m 6’4 and have to duck in a fulll height bus.

 

[Bovverboy]

Lancaster City Transport once had a driver who suffered a breakdown, stole a decker and took it for a ride, tried to take in under the railway bridge at Low Bentham. You can guess the rest

I lived in Morecambe from 1958 to 1982 and don't recall the above, so I presume it must have have been after my 'time'.

The first low bridge which the above errant driver would have encountered would have been just over half way between Wennington and Low Bentham, unless he had the presence of mind to divert via Millhouses, which seems unlikely. Both this bridge and the one presumably referred to above (i.e. at the site of Low Bentham railway station) are currently marked as 13'3", although, in both cases, the marking seems quite poor, to say that the two bridges are on a 'B' road.

Until the mid-1970s the bridge at Low Bentham was passable by lowheight dds, and a proportion of the journeys on Ribble's Lancaster to Ingleton service were so operated. At one point the road underneath the bridge was resurfaced, without any alarm bells ringing, but in due course one of the NCME-bodied Atlanteans (1953 - ECK953E - I think) came back from overhaul with new front springs fitted and got wedged underneath. That, as far as I know, was the last of running dds under that particular bridge.

Stagecoach / Ribble also lost two roofs in a year on the same rail bridge in Skerton.
Basically due to mixing single and double deckers on services which shared a large part of the route, with the singles going under the bridge and the deckers diverging. The drivers just lost the plot of what service they were on, mainly because they were made to shift routes mid shift

I presume the bridge involved was the one on Torrisholme Road. I doubt that the locals would consider themselves to be living in Skerton, but, politically, I suppose they could be. Until the so-called 'agency' agreement of the late 1970s (whereby former Ribble and LCC routes were recast) the only route running under the said bridge was the LCC one to Ryelands, which, of course, was always single-deck operated. After the reshuffle an hourly (I think) service ran from Morecambe to Lancaster via Torrisholme Road, whereas all other services coming from the Torrisholme direction (mostly double-deck operated) diverted down Scale Hall Lane, as they had traditionally done. A classic risky bridge.

During my time in Morecambe two buses were damaged under the canopy at Morecambe Promenade station. In 1960, I think, Morecambe & Heysham 10 (GTJ694), a Regent II/Park Royal, was taken under, with the consequence that it was converted to a tower wagon for use with the council's illuminations department. In that guise it lasted for many years, easily outlasting its five sisters, which were withdrawn after the 1966 summer season.

About 1970 one of Ribble's Burlingham-bodied PD3/4s, 1588 (LCK751), went under, but despite the vehicle's age, and the amount of damage, it was repaired.

The only true low bridge accident I can remember involved another Ribble PD3/Burlingham, 1555 (KCK916), which was taken under the railway bridge on St George's Quay, Lancaster. It was repaired, also reupholstered, and fitted with fluorescent lighting, one of only a handful of the PD3/Burlinghams to be so equipped.

One other incident to incur roof damage involved Morecambe & Heysham 88 (34MTD), PD2/Massey, which hit the canopy outside the Alhambra theatre, Morecambe, sometime in the 1960s. It was repaired, this being many years prior to its ultimate conversion to open-top.

 

[DD12]

Thanks hassaanhc, lets make that 8B on the list ! -
- Grounding of front end when DD is already leaning on a bend/ turn !!

 

[DD12]

Not really avoidable but ...
other vehicles. I was once in a packed double decker (stationary) on a narrow road when a passing lorry squeezed by taking some of the rubber window surrounds with it.

Thanks Typhoon,
that's an interesting one -- I've not heard of that particular variation of "every-day hazards" for DDs before !!

 

[DD12]

Stagecoach / Ribble also lost two roofs in a year on the same rail bridge in Skerton.
Basically due to mixing single and double deckers on services which shared a large part of the route, with the singles going under the bridge and the deckers diverging. The drivers just lost the plot of what service they were on, mainly because they were made to shift routes mid shift

Yes, that's "really asking for it !!" -- make that 14B on the list !

Thanks randy !

 

[DD12]

.... I’m 6’4 and have to duck in a fulll height bus.

John, do you mean you duck when approaching a low bridge ?

 

[DD12]

.... came back from overhaul with new front springs fitted and got wedged underneath. That, as far as I know, was the last of running dds under that particular bridge.

Let's make that number 18 on the hit-list ! -- "it fitted underneath ok yesterday !!"
(overhauled suspension/ new springs).

Thanks Bovverboy !

 

[randyrippley]

another one.....wind
around 20 years ago LCT had two blown off the road on successive days by strong gales on the coastal road at Cockerham
Same bunch of school kids on each........as far as I can make out they were from a batch of Atlanteans that started life with Salford.
Air assisted steering which had an inbuilt delay of several seconds after turning the wheel so impossible to keep straight.
On the third day they sent out a pair of coaches..........
Local legend (as told by a local driver at the time) had it that both were actually blown over, but that seems a bit beyond belief

 

[MotCO]

Let's make that number 18 on the hit-list ! -- "it fitted underneath ok yesterday !!"
!

Not quite in the same league, but recently Streetlites on route 170 in London had to be swapped with Enviro 200s since the Streetlites 'became' too high when the authorities remeasured a bridge and lowered the height limit. On the other hand, let's make this 18A.

 

[Jonny]

From a passenger POV, there is the slight matter of emergency braking - which may or may not be justified: http://www.parklaneplowden.co.uk/uploads/documents/RC SJ article Sept 2014.pdf

 

[Typhoon]

Thanks Typhoon,
that's an interesting one -- I've not heard of that particular variation of "every-day hazards" for DDs before !!

The lorry driver did the decent thing and told the bus driver, who had no idea. Passengers were gobsmacked as firstly the windows bulged inwards then the window surround was torn away; most passengers were school kids so you can guess the response.

 

[PermitToTravel]

7A. Almost the opposite of item 7 -- is "tail-swipe" -- swinging to the right when leaving a bus-stop, say.
With the trend towards longer rear overhangs on DDs, I expected to read reports of more trouble caused by this (?)

Tailswing is the opposite problem to this - when a large vehicle is steered to the right, the rear overhang goes left (and vice versa).

Rear overhangs tend to be longer on single deckers - the ability to mount the engine vertically makes it less necessary on double deckers

 

[DD12]

Tailswing is the opposite problem to this - when a large vehicle is steered to the right, the rear overhang goes left (and vice versa).

Thanks, PermitToTravel - that's what I meant to say -- "when the FRONT of the bus swings to the right".

 

[DD12]

EVASIVE action ! -- Thanks Johnny for your post and link above -- I declare this to be number 19:-
Other road users doing stupid and dangerous things causing the driver of the DD to make a split-second decision on how to react, and perhaps hitting something over-head --
or perhaps doing an emergency stop while a passenger is negotiating the staircase.

There must be many variations of this, where the consequences for a double-decker could be worse than for a single-decker !

 

[DD12]

another one.....wind

Thanks randy -- WIND - rushes in at number 20 !!

 

[DD12]

Not quite in the same league, but recently Streetlites on route 170 in London had to be swapped with Enviro 200s since the Streetlites 'became' too high when the authorities remeasured a bridge and lowered the height limit. On the other hand, let's make this 18A.

Yes; thanks MotCo !
- Can we assume that the upper extremities of the StreetLites had NOT rubbed against/ contacted the bridge, but were swapped for legal and insurance compliance ?

 

[DD12]

another one.....wind - -

.... Air assisted steering which had an inbuilt delay of several seconds after turning the wheel so impossible to keep straight.

Perhaps No.21 should be "Adverse vehicle (bus) characteristics" - - more of an own-goal than an external hazard !
- From time to time I have read (with alarm !) about various examples ! -
- sometimes big variations between "makes" of buses, and sometimes unexpected variations within a batch (of the same type) - especially as they age.

I think some of these characteristics and variations could result in more serious consequences for DDs (compared to single-deckers).

 

[AndyNLondon]

-- the lowest points of the arch (LHS and RHS) appear to me to be LOWER than 14 foot 6, so I'm confused now as to whether the signage should be changed to show the lowest height to avoid an impact ?!?!?

It's entirely possible that the lowest parts of the arch are lower than the posted height limit, though if that's the case then the width over which the marked height is available should be shown on the bridge with an
H-shaped marking, as in the "available width of headroom indicated" diagram at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs. Posting limits based on the height available for a reasonable width at the centre on an arch makes sense to me - if the signs showed the lowest height then drivers would know there was more clearance available in the middle, but not how much.

 

[DaiGog]

22. Basketball hoops attached to the wall of a school yard can be a hazard for double deckers making three point turns on school contract workings, as a colleague of mine once found out in York when said metal hoop came through the upstairs rear window!

 

[DD12]

22. Basketball hoops attached to the wall of a school yard can be a hazard for double deckers making three point turns on school contract workings, as a colleague of mine once found out in York when said metal hoop came through the upstairs rear window!

"Whoops !!"

 

[DD12]

It's entirely possible that the lowest parts of the arch are lower than the posted height limit, though if that's the case then the width over which the marked height is available should be shown on the bridge with an
H-shaped marking, as in the "available width of headroom indicated" diagram at https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/traffic-signs. Posting limits based on the height available for a reasonable width at the centre on an arch makes sense to me - if the signs showed the lowest height then drivers would know there was more clearance available in the middle, but not how much.

Excellent reply and link, thanks AndyN.

Locally, I'm not aware of how many times the arched bridges have been hit, but in recent years, the other types of bridges are being hit frequently, and I think I may have read or heard that the relevant people are reviewing the situation (?)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Internal obstruction in depots.

United Auto moved their Northallerton depot to another shed and whilst it was fine at the apex, the slope of the roof meant it was nearer 13’ at the eaves, as discovered with an ECW Olympian.

A number of Lowland depots were single deck only!

 

[DD12]

"Evil No.23" -- The towing (recovery) of DDs !

A few years ago, I had the privilege of following a Volvo Citybus DD ( a.14 feet 10 inches high) which was being towed back to the depot.
It had it's front jacked-up high, and was "doing" about 20-25 MPH --
the back end was "rocking" - leaning alternately to the left and the right, and the thick overhanging branch of an old tree was just-ahead !!

-- I would have overtaken the outfit to try and stop it, but there was a queue of slow moving cars coming the other way,
and by some miracle it passed through ok !!