Hayle to Paddington

[tivoli]

My daughter recently travelled from Hayle (Cornwall) to London Paddington.
She had bought an advance ticket from GWR, which because of the departure time she requested, included a change at Plymouth. The ticket stated valid only with a reservation, but the only reservation she received was from Plymouth to Paddington. In practice she left earlier than she planned, to be sure of not missing her connection at Plymouth and took a XC train from Hayle. She was reprimanded on the XC train for not having a reservation although she hadn't been sent one and there was no mention on the ticket of being GWR only. She was allowed to carry on with a slapped wrist but still doesn't know what she did wrong. Any ideas?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The ticket must have seat reservations for all 'reservable' services and you must stick to those trains. The likelyhood is that the ticket was booked for a train which was 'non-reservable' so there was no reservation for it. This means that she could use another service for that leg of the journey. However, the XC service is a 'reservable' service, so to use it required a reservation. Had your daughter picked another 'non-reservable' service she would have had no problems.

 

[tony_mac]

...but where does it say any of this that the passenger can read? Even if you were to somehow know not to travel on a 'reservable' train, how are you supposed to know which ones they are?

The national rail website just says

If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

 

[tivoli]

Thank you tony mac, you have asked my next question! Many occasional travellers, like my daughter, have only a vague idea that there are actually different train companies, let alone that some are reservable or not, it seems logical if you turn up at an unmanned station like Hayle with what appears to be a valid ticket, you would get on the next train which is going to your destination.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You are supposed to be told, when you buy the ticket, that it is only valid on the trains that it is booked on (or is on your travel itinerary), obviously if someone else bought the ticket for you or you bought it online it may be possible to miss that information.

The point about knowing which trains are reservable is fair, things like that used to be printed in the national rail timetable (which used to be available at WHSmiths), but I would assume (although I haven't actually looked) that this information is now available on the National Rail Enquiries website or the train operators website/timetables, but you might have to look for it.

Guards tend to know where unreservable services operate and I imagine most use descretion when applying the rules.

 

[glynn80]

The point about knowing which trains are reservable is fair, things like that used to be printed in the national rail timetable (which used to be available at WHSmiths), but I would assume (although I haven't actually looked) that this information is now available on the National Rail Enquiries website or the train operators website/timetables, but you might have to look for it.

The National Rail Timetable is still published on the Network Rail website (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/3828.aspx), in exactly the same format as was previously the case with the paper edition.

 

[tony_mac]

If it's only valid for a single service, then why not include a reservation coupon to that effect?

If it's valid for more than one service, then it should say which ones that it's valid for - not leave it up to the passenger to guess or go trawling through various websites trying to find information relating to a rule that they didn't even know existed.

From National Rail

where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

I have no idea what 'other valid travel itinerary' actually means; I would assume that it means any reasonable connection on a permitted route, but it could be anything.
and FGW say

Your ticket is only valid for the date, reserved train(s) and reserved seat(s) shown on your ticket(s), plus local connecting train services to and from your reserved train.

I don't see a hint there that you have to look for 'non-reservable' connecting services.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I have no idea what 'other valid travel itinerary' actually means; I would assume that it means any reasonable connection on a permitted route, but it could be anything.
and FGW say

Your ticket is only valid for the date, reserved train(s) and reserved seat(s) shown on your ticket(s), plus local connecting train services to and from your reserved train.

I don't see a hint there that you have to look for 'non-reservable' connecting services.

The clue is in the 'local connecting services' bit, most local services are non-reservable, by contrast, long distance services are almost always reservable. An XC service is hardly local, although I will admit that an irregular user is unlikely to recognise the difference.

I don't think there is a definative description for a 'valid travel itinerary' but I take it to mean a journey plan (for the whole journey) from any of the TOC or national rail websites, or printed at a ticket office. Usually this means a reasonable connection.

 

[ashworth]

I think this whole situation has become more difficult for the average passenger to understand now that the larger airline style tickets have been phased out. When you booked an AP ticket with the airline style tickets all of the trains and times, for the whole of your journey were listed on the ticket.

With the smaller tickets, the only actual time you are given are for the reserved part of the journey.

Next month I am travelling from Mansfield to Blackpool North. To take advantage of a very cheap AP price I have to change at Nottingham, Derby, Crewe and Preston. The only train that I actually have a reservation for is from Crewe to Preston. Therefore that is the only timing that I actually have in writing on the seat reservation ticket for that part of the journey. If I hadn't have kept a copy of the email confirmation of booking that I received, I would have no information about which times of trains I would need to catch from Mansfield to Nottingham, Nottingham to Derby and from Derby to Crewe to ensure that I get to Crewe in time for my booked train.

I notice that I am expected to travel on an unreserved EMT service between Nottingham and Derby. There is actually a XC service a short time before this. Does this mean that I would be wrong to get on the XC train as part of my local connections?

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I notice that I am expected to travel on an unreserved EMT service between Nottingham and Derby. There is actually a XC service a short time before this. Does this mean that I would be wrong to get on the XC train as part of my local connections?

I guess so, as I'm assuming all the XC services are reservable

 

[tivoli]

Thanks for all those responses. From my daughter's perspective, her journey from Hayle to Plymouth was a 'local connecting service'. She believed all trains go to Plymouth and probably had no interest in whether it terminated there or carried on to Dundee or wherever.The fact that it was a XC train may have been a clue, but not everyone has an interest in the train operator's name, it's just a train. Effectively she was treating it the same way as the final part of her journey from London to home in Cambridge, where she knew she would simply turn up and get on the next train out. No doubt when she booked the tickets on-line there would have been an itinerary from the requested departure time but once she had the tickets in her hand, she presumed all the info she needed was contained there or will we get to a stage where we have to carry an itinerary with us as well as the tickets.

 

[EltonRoad]

\

 

[devon_metro]

The only AP tickets available from Hayle - Paddington are clearly marked

"GREAT WESTN ONLY"

 

[mrcheek]

The only AP tickets available from Hayle - Paddington are clearly marked

"GREAT WESTN ONLY"

which is no help whatsoever. Totally meaningless to all but the most seasoned rail user. and even an experience rail user could say "But Im travelling on the great western route, like it says"

And I dont see why travelling on the XC service should be a problem. Often when making journeys from Weston-super-Mare to Paddington (change at Temple Meads), the schedule would list a local FGW service to get to Bristol, but we would always travel on the earlier XC service, so that we would arrive at Temple Meads in plenty of time. Taking the later service that we were scheduled on would have risked missing the connection if it ran late. And never were our tickets queried.

 

[tony_mac]

The retailers don't seem to agree that advance tickets are only on FGW.....

Depart Arrive Travel by Carrier Seating
09:52 HAYLE 13:15 TAUNTON Train CROSSCOUNTRY C29A
13:34 TAUNTON 15:23 LONDON Train FIRST GREAT WESTERN D45A

Ticket: ADVANCE SINGLE ticket This is a Single ticket

 

[tivoli]

Originally Posted by devon_metro
The only AP tickets available from Hayle - Paddington are clearly marked

"GREAT WESTN ONLY"

To be fair, the AP ticket was Hayle to Cambridge. The only reference to Great Western was on the reservation from Plymouth to Paddington.

 

[glynn80]

To be fair, the AP ticket was Hayle to Cambridge. The only reference to Great Western was on the reservation from Plymouth to Paddington.

In the case of Hayle to Cambridge, the route restriction is in fact "rte + AP LONDN READING".

This is as opposed to "GREAT WESTN ONLY" which is used on the Hayle to London flow.

 

[yorkie]

The ticket must have seat reservations for all 'reservable' services and you must stick to those trains.

This isn't actually a rule.

The likelyhood is that the ticket was booked for a train which was 'non-reservable' so there was no reservation for it. This means that she could use another service for that leg of the journey.

Correct

However, the XC service is a 'reservable' service, so to use it required a reservation.

Source?

Had your daughter picked another 'non-reservable' service she would have had no problems.

I agree, but that doesn't mean that she should have problems on the other train, which is the implication.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think this whole situation has become more difficult for the average passenger to understand now that the larger airline style tickets have been phased out. When you booked an AP ticket with the airline style tickets all of the trains and times, for the whole of your journey were listed on the ticket.

Yes but is it really much different? They used to say "SUGGESTED SERVICE", does that make it any more or less reasonable to use it on a different service?

 

[glynn80]

The FRPP states this with regard to Advance tickets:

When and where the ticket can be used

- Tickets are valid only on the date and train service(s) shown on the ticket(s).

- Where applicable, customers must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

- Tickets may only be used on the services of the Train Company (or geographic route where applicable) shown next to ‘Route’ on the ticket.

- If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

- If the route is prefixed with a ✠, the ticket includes the cost of travelling across London on London Underground, Docklands Light Railway or First Capital Connect (Thameslink Route) services as appropriate to the journey.

The bullet point that states "If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary", is obviously relevant in this situation. Basically what it is stating is that the customer can use any connecting train that is either printed as a suggested service or any other connecting train that shows up on a valid travel itinerary, such as those available from the National Rail website. This prevents customers catching services that are way outside the timing parameters that the ticket was originally purchased for.

 

[yorkie]

In that case it is valid as National Rail will show it as a valid itinery if you specify 1 hour additonal changing time.

There's no requirement that I can see that the trains must be unreservable (this 'rule' appears to have been made up, which is not uncommon for railway 'rules'!), and there is no requirement that I can see that the itinery must be printed and produced by the customer.

 

[Dennis]

Nearly two pages of gibber by mostly knowledgeable forum members and a definitive answer still not provided. Not surprising norms get confused is it?

 

[EltonRoad]

In my opinion, many of these problems are arising because we're using a ticket system that originates from BR days and is becoming increasingly outdated.

Pre privatisation there would never have been a Route Great Western Only. Most users of this forum know full well that this exists in order that FGW gets allocated all the revenue, but to an ordinary passenger it is completely meaningless. No wonder there is so much confusion.

In the early 90s I used to work in a BR travel centre. When selling APEX tickets we were told to issue a seat reservation for every reservable leg of the journey, using the AP quota. However on a journey such as Hayle to Paddington we would probably have used discretion when issuing a reservation from Hayle to Plymouth and either not issued one at all or issued a reservation from the standard quota (rather than using up a limited AP quota on a long-distance InterCity Cross Country train which would have prevented say a Penzance to Edinburgh APEX being sold).

Clearly the number of AP tickets needs to be rationed, but when APEX tickets were introduced it was the main InterCity leg of the journey that needed reserving, we, as clerks, were less bothered about the connection. It is a debatable point though in cases like Hayle to Plymouth as that's some distance. Something like Saltash to Plymouth probably no-one's going to query it.

 

[glynn80]

Pre privatisation there would never have been a Route Great Western Only. Most users of this forum know full well that this exists in order that FGW gets allocated all the revenue, but to an ordinary passenger it is completely meaningless. No wonder there is so much confusion.

Well this is a pretty obvious point to make considering there was no TOC franchising system. There were equivalent "Route Specific" restrictions in BR days which achieved the same outcome of limiting the customer to specific services.

The reason for these flows being routed "Great Western Only" is pretty straightforward. "Great Western Only" is printed on the tickets to clarify to customers that FGW's services are the only services that are valid with the ticket held. The fact that FGW gain all the revenue is an irrelevance because with these Advance tickets, the only "Oppourtunity to Travel" is on FGW services, i.e. ORCATS would allocate the revenue to FGW regardless.

 

[EltonRoad]

Oh right. Are you sure it's not there to prevent travel on XC services like the OP's daughter did?

When you say the only opportunity to travel is on FGW services, what about Hayle to Paddington? In the current timetable there is a 0952 XC from Hayle to Plymouth arr 1137, changing onto the 1200 FGW to Paddington. However because the ticket is routed "Great Western Only" my reading is that it's not valid on that connection.

Sorry but I don't believe that route Great Western Only is printed there to clarify anything for the customer! It's there to force all advance-purchase ticket holders onto FGW's trains and therefore ensure all the money goes to FGW. Sadly it also happens to render the ticket invalid on perfectly good connections ..

 

[glynn80]

When you say the only opportunity to travel is on FGW services, what about Hayle to Paddington? In the current timetable there is a 0952 XC from Hayle to Plymouth arr 1137, changing onto the 1200 FGW to Paddington. However because the ticket is routed "Great Western Only" my reading is that it's not valid on that connection.

The 0952 service you mention, is in fact the only XC service that stops at Hayle for the entire day. It is the only circumstance from Hayle where this scenario occurs. This is not isolated to Hayle either, if we take a station like Penzance which sees a substantially higher number of XC services per day than Hayle's single service, out of all the "Oppourtunities to Travel" it is not once quicker to use XC and change at Plymouth. The list of connections and whether they required a change is listed below:

0505- 0 Changes
0531- 0 Changes
0648- 0 Changes
0737- 0 Changes
0844- 0 Changes
1000- 0 Changes
1049- 0 Changes
1145- 1 Change but using FGW services throughout
1254- 1 Change but using FGW services throughout
1400- 0 Changes
1453- 1 Change but using FGW services throughout
1600- 0 Changes
1644- 1 Change but using FGW services throughout
1738- 0 Changes
2145- 0 Changes

What sort of business would change all their Cornish flows from "Great Western Only" to "FGW+Connections" to increase connections on one service from one station but at the same time sharing revenue with XC on all other possible "Oppourtunity's to Travel" on all their other Cornish flows.

Sorry but I don't believe that route Great Western Only is printed there to clarify anything for the customer! It's there to force all advance-purchase ticket holders onto FGW's trains and therefore ensure all the money goes to FGW. Sadly it also happens to render the ticket invalid on perfectly good connections ..

Which perfectly good connections are you talking about, if you are talking about a customer wishing to break their journey in Plymouth and then resume their journey (which from the above seems to be the only fathomable connections that would be relevant) and catch a suitably timed XC service, then an Advance purchase ticket is not the ticket for that customer. Certainly on the journeys from Penzance to Paddington on a Monday to Friday, I found no XC service was quicker for the customer, than the alternative FGW services. This is exactly the same circumstance on the reverse flow of Paddington to Penzance.

I can wholly understand FGW restricting their Cornish Advance purchase tickets to their own services, there a business and there are suitably timed FGW services for customers to catch, which either require no changes or connect very well into FGW services at stations such as Plymouth. There is no material benefit to either the customer (except for purposes not relevant to Advance tickets) or FGW if they were to change their policy, the only winner would be XC through increased ORCATS revenue.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Source?

- Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased

Such a tough thing to read, this FRPP thing, don't you think?

 

[Jim]

My daughter recently travelled from Hayle (Cornwall) to London Paddington.
She had bought an advance ticket from GWR, which because of the departure time she requested, included a change at Plymouth. The ticket stated valid only with a reservation, but the only reservation she received was from Plymouth to Paddington. In practice she left earlier than she planned, to be sure of not missing her connection at Plymouth and took a XC train from Hayle. She was reprimanded on the XC train for not having a reservation although she hadn't been sent one and there was no mention on the ticket of being GWR only. She was allowed to carry on with a slapped wrist but still doesn't know what she did wrong. Any ideas?

All reservable trains are shown in the timetable, normally with a 'diamond' on the top of the collum

As pointed out, it is my understanding that you MUST stick to your journey itinery, (after all its made for your use, not for the sake of it!)which when you book is displayed, just because there is no reservation, it doesn't automaticly exclude that leg of the journey from the rule. Now, in THEORY and if it was a XC guard who was a proper rule book, the person involved COULD of had the ticket withdrawn and had to buy a brand new full open single.

Also, with the greatest of respect, surley even to a once a year traveler, the "XC" in the timetable and the "Cross Country" on the side of the train should give away the company providing the service?

 

[tony_mac]

Again, if you must stick to exactly the itinerary, then why not include reservation coupons so that you know this? That would make the whole thing extremely simple.
The FGW website does not say that you have to stick to the itinerary except for the reserved leg.

Yes, you can tell, if you look it up, that it's a XC service - but how are you supposed to know that is siginificant unless you are told that it is? If it doesn't specify a TOC on the ticket, why would you think of that?

The quote given from the FRPP (which the passenger can't see anyway) tells you that you are not allowed on any train if you don't have a reservation for it.
So what if you are not given a seat reservation for some portion of your journey? If you take this literally, then you can't get on any train.
More sensibly, you could assume it means that this only applies when you have a reservation. Or you could manage to interpret it in a way that requires all passengers to know this and check the small-print on the timetables before they consider boarding the next train that is going to their connection point.

The passenger is given absolutely no information on what trains it is valid on, other than possibly it must be a local connecting service. So they get on the next train to their local connection, and some people think that it's reasonable to make them buy a new ticket because of that?

If you want passengers to follow some particular rules, then isn't it better to tell them what they are first? and not give them some nonsense about a particular interpretation of a non-public document.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Every rail ticket retailer, be it online, telesales or ticket office, has an obligation to tell you the restrictions of your ticket at the time of purchase. It matters not how they do it, but they must make it known. I have never used a website to buy a ticket so I'm perhaps not best placed to confirm how they do it, but they MUST do it. It could be that there is a link to the T&Cs and a sentence on the screen that says something like "click here if you agree to the T&Cs" or "Tick box if you agree to the T&Cs" or something like that, in any case it will be there. If you fail to read the T&Cs, whose fault is that? It certainly isn't the railway's fault, or the particular TOC involved, or the even the retailers fault, it's yours.

Even though you don't have a reservation for the non-reservable train, that is the train you agreed to travel on. To travel on another train, reservable or otherwise, is a change of travel plans. However, if the service you actually use is non-reservable, and the train you agreed to travel on is also non-reservable, no-one is any the wiser, but if the train you actually travel on is reservable, it is obvious you have changed your travel plans because you have no reservation for it.

Equally, if you have a booked train, but you use a non-reservable train instead, the ticket is not valid.

 

[EltonRoad]

glynn80 has provided a lovely defence for FGW. My point is still valid though. If you live in Hayle and want to buy an AP to Paddington you have nothing between 0751 and 1103, unless you double back via Penzance. But that's just mad. It would add about an hour onto the journey.

I did state which perfectly good connection I was talking about - it was the 0952 off Hayle.

The same applies if you live in Lostwithiel. You can't take the 1050 XC to Plymouth and change to Paddington.

The route Great Western Only fares will survive several timetable changes so there are bound to be certain flows that come and go. This means FGW doesn't need to worry about connecting XC services, whether they are there by design or otherwise, and they can relax in the knowledge that they'll get all the money from all flows.

Like glynn80 I can "wholly understand" FGW restricting tickets to their own trains. What I'm saying though is that it's not in the interests of some customers, and this is a more restrictive regime than would have operated under BR. OK we're probably not talking about huge numbers of passengers, but the OP was about a problem caused by the routing endorsment, which wouldn't have occurred if it had been marked say route AP Reading. I certainly side with the OP's daughter, not FGW.