Have/will the MK4 coaches leave the ECML?

[25322]

Apart from one set making it to Manchester in the early 90s for an Olympics bid promotion I dont think they have ever strayed from the ECML so far....

Er ERR Buzzer

Wrong

They stray onto the West Coast Line Everyday. Between Carstairs and Glasgow Central.

They have also been diverted down the WCML on a few occasions and a tour once did London-London Via the ECML and WCML using a 91 and MK4 set

 

[Pumbaa]

Er ERR Buzzer

Wrong

They stray onto the West Coast Line Everyday. Between Carstairs and Glasgow Central.

They have also been diverted down the WCML on a few occasions and a tour once did London-London Via the ECML and WCML using a 91 and MK4 set

If we're being right pedantic, the Haymarket - Carstairs section is also considered WCML by NR.

 

[gchst]

Mk4s might go to east anglia when the IEPs arrive.

 

[Mystic Force]

With the railway we have we can be pretty sure that these will go somewhere. One of the much emphasised parts of the various reports on electrification have included items about the fact that electric traction will last longer than diesel in service. And as the 225s are about 20 years old and the HST is around 30 years old, this doesn't make much sense as a stratergy to be mainly displacing the younger, longer living stock first. So it must be going somewhere. The question is where. We are repeadelty informed that we have a lack of stock, but is there anywhere that these sets fit? One thing is the current length of trains would probably have to go. The only exception to this would be a move to the WCML, but would that offer much benefit over the recently added pendos as is there a current shortage, by benefit I do not mean to those who say I like MK4 better than a rattling Pendo, your opinion doesn't count much to the people who decide those things, but rather an argument of the suitability of the stock for this service, capacity constraints etc.

The only other line that is electrified and is an "intercity" type service is the GEML and the MK3/90 will have to be replaced at some point but the 91s are about the same age as the 90s so no real benefit, as the line speed is not that high. And would noway need the number of sets available so even if this does happen then some would be going elsewhere.

So the only other option is deployment on a newly electrified line, but the MML is said to be unsuitable for these when its done and the GWML is already assigned new electric traction as part of the IEP program. Which is why I think maybe the MML option would be considered as part of any potential electrification as there is no mentioned rollingstock in any of the plans, along with maybe transfer to the GEML too as the MML shouldn't take alll the stock either. The only other option is export (who would want them?) or spot hire (again how much demand can there be?)

 

[jonhewes]

The only other line that is electrified and is an "intercity" type service is the GEML and the MK3/90 will have to be replaced at some point but the 91s are about the same age as the 90s so no real benefit, as the line speed is not that high.

Although the 91s are around the same age as the 90s, the MKIV coaches are much more modern than the MKIIIs currently paired up with the 90s. The MKIVs have automatic doors which is a huge advantage over the MK IIIs

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the 90s (with superior accelleration, but lower top speed) paired up with the MK IVs on the GEML.

91s, who knows, reduce the gear ratio, remove the ETS and you might have a half decent freight loco.

 

[Z12XE]

Mk4s might go to east anglia when the IEPs arrive.

Thats unlikely - any Mk3 replacement is likely to be with units, on the grounds of capacity etc. It's starting next year with 321s

 

[captainbigun]

Indeed. I love a Mk3 (not so much the Skodas, but better than nothing!) but the LHCS doesn't make best use of what is a highly utilised route. Replacing the LHCS with one of the modern EMU designs (something similar to the 444s has been mooted) makes sense. This will give better performance, more seats and better fits the profile of the route.

Not sure what the options are for re-gearing the 91s as they have nose suspended drives, I suspect options will be limited.

 

[poshbakerloo]

i wonder if the MK4s will ever get to run at 140Mph and tilting like they was meant to...

 

[captainbigun]

Very unlikely. The 91s did have space for the tilt equipment for the power supply but this is now taken up by the fire suppressant.

 

[jopsuk]

given tilt is primarily for passenger comfort more than anything else, do the locos actually NEED to tilt with the coaches? There's a few loco hauled tilting trains using non-tilting locos in other countries.

 

[Royston Vasey]

given tilt is primarily for passenger comfort more than anything else, do the locos actually NEED to tilt with the coaches? There's a few loco hauled tilting trains using non-tilting locos in other countries.

I thought it was equally to do with physics? Doesn't the additional centripetal force maintain the train's stability on the tracks?

 

[yorkie]

the cost of regearing the 91s would be prohobitive. Also, the 91s would increase trackwear when compared to the 222s.

Is there any evidence of this? Everything I've read indicates the opposite is the case; that the new lardbutt DMUs cause more track wear than locos and coaches.

"Following research carried out by the ORR and AEA it is likely the cost of operating high speed below floor engined dmu's will rise considerably as track access charges are re-assessed. In the case of the largest fleets the 220's are likely to cost around 21% more per seat than HST and the 221s around 50% more per seat.

Experience and Wheelchex monitoring has shown accelerated rates of wear and increased impact from 220 and 221 type trains compared to the HSTs.

It is thought a combination of faster acceleration and deceleration with the small diameter wheels on vehicles weighing around 50 tonnes each is responsible. With a five car 221 having only just over half the seats of an 8 car HST there is less revenue earning capacity to absorb the increase. The research also affects the 180s but with more seats the rise is not as steep. " - Rail Manager August 2004

 

[tbtc]

How many rakes are we talking about? You could use a dozen on the Edinburgh - Glasgow "shuttle", for example, rather than order new 380s (or whatever).

Would the 91s cope with TransPennine hills, out of interest?

(I appreciate the lack of wires currently on the above lines, of course)

 

[captainbigun]

given tilt is primarily for passenger comfort more than anything else, do the locos actually NEED to tilt with the coaches? There's a few loco hauled tilting trains using non-tilting locos in other countries.

The power supply wasn't for the loco.....

 

[RobShipway]

Not sure if it is just me, but I think that IEP will replace the Class 91/MK4 coaches on ECML, with the Class 91/MK4 going to either the GWML in the short term or being used for HS2 if it ever gets built as these trains with refurbishment would be perfect for it with their 140mph top speed.

Could they be used alongside the Javelins on HS1 on services just from St Pancras to Ashford where they can operate without the need to have 3rd rail running gear added?

 

[O L Leigh]

I don't buy the GEML option, but then nor do I believe that the current Skoda + Mk3 combos will be replaced "in the next few years" either. Like the ECML and elsewhere, I expect the GEML will receive a variant of the IEP when it eventually comes on-stream in the not-to-distant. This is a far better bet than yet another train with a loco and DVT eating into platform space, plus they are not as fast accelerating and would not be able to make any use of their superior top speed.

As for the Mk4's, I fear they may end up effectively homeless. They would make a good replacement for the existing Mk3 LHCS that is currently plying it's trade on the spot-hire market, but I cannot see any other obvious opening that they could fill. The only option I can realistically see is that the ECML fleet will not be entirely replaced by IEP's but will operate for a time alongside the IC225 fleet.

On the point of acceleration, I believe that the slow getaway of the IC225's has more to do with the way that the locos and stock are set-up. It was always my experience of these trains that the train brake would bleed of gradually as the loco power was slowly fed in. This was reinforced during the very early days of Cl90's deputising for Cl91's. These locos were not set-up the same way and you would always feel a hard jolt when the train initially started away. I have always put this down to the loco attempting to accelerate at full bore into the back of the train while the brake was still effectively on. Even without seeing what class of loco was at the back you could always predict which it was from whether or not there was the jolt.

O L Leigh

 

[Aictos]

After reading a old copy of Rail which a colleague gave me to read, I found a article on the 91 set being used on the WCML:

Seems a shortage of Class 158s forced Virgin Cross Country to hire in a spare set from GNER to work the 1450 Edinburgh to Manchester Airport via Carstairs and the WCML formed of 91027 Great North Run and set BN60 which although arriving at Carlisle on time, got cancelled from there and passengers transferred to a Regional Railways North West service.

The GNER set then went ECS back to Edinburgh and resumed it's normal duties on Monday.