Has the MML speed limit increased recently?

[38Cto15E]

Have the line speed improvements on the Midland Mainline been implemented lately, my GPS was showing 123mph between Sharnbrook Jct and Bedford yesterday. (HST)

 

[najaB]

Have the line speed improvements on the Midland Mainline been implemented lately, my GPS was showing 123mph between Sharnbrook Jct and Bedford yesterday. (HST)

I hope so, or there's a driver having tea and biscuits today...

 

[asylumxl]

Quite a while ago now. Last December the new timetable was implemented, though some work wasn't finished at the time.

Roughly speaking, 125mph from Radlett to just south of St Albans, then from Leagrave till south of Bedford.

 

[LTJ87]

There were some timetable improvements last December, but the promise of a 90minute journey time from Nottingham to St Pancras by EMT's PR team was not quite as advertised.

There's just one train a day with a 90 minute journey time and EMT say there will be no further journey time improvements before electrification.

On a related note, here are the slides from a recent East Midlands Rail Summit with some of the plans for the MML from Network Rail and EMT.

http://www.emcouncils.gov.uk/write/East_Midlands_Rail_Summit_-_10_October_(presentations).pdf

 

[The Planner]

There were some timetable improvements last December, but the promise of a 90minute journey time from Nottingham to St Pancras by EMT's PR team was not quite as advertised.

There's just one train a day with a 90 minute journey time and EMT say there will be no further journey time improvements before electrification.

Ha ha! welcome to TOC spin, they have delivered on what they have said they would do, they haven't said how many trains would do it. Its like Virgin can claim New St to Euston in 73 minutes, only one train does it.

 

[yorkie]

Have the line speed improvements on the Midland Mainline been implemented lately, my GPS was showing 123mph between Sharnbrook Jct and Bedford yesterday. (HST)

Yes, see

• Midland Main Line improvements
• upgrading the Midland Mainline to 125mph
• Midland Main Line, 125 mph from 8 December 2013
• Midland Mainline speed test
• 125mph - how much track?

 

[Senex]

On a related note, here are the slides from a recent East Midlands Rail Summit with some of the plans for the MML from Network Rail and EMT.

http://www.emcouncils.gov.uk/write/East_Midlands_Rail_Summit_-_10_October_(presentations).pdf

Interesting! So they propose to sort out the reverse curve at Market Harborough but keep the bridge over the old LNW route (with its speed restriction for curvature) rather than revert to the original full-speed Midland alignment. And a very interesting indication of how they propose to fit in a flyover at Wigston North Jn.

 

[38Cto15E]

On the link kindly provided by ltj87, on page 27 is a picture of Bubbles Spa at derby, I am not quite sure where that fits into future plans.

 

[snowball]

I didn't know Kidsgrove was in the East Midlands (page 11 of that document).

 

[Wyvern]

On the link kindly provided by ltj87, on page 27 is a picture of Bubbles Spa at derby, I am not quite sure where that fits into future plans.

I'm wondering whether Derby is better known in railway land for Bubbles than it is for Bombardier. Certainly handy during a gruelling training course.

 

[21C101]

Interesting! So they propose to sort out the reverse curve at Market Harborough but keep the bridge over the old LNW route (with its speed restriction for curvature) rather than revert to the original full-speed Midland alignment. And a very interesting indication of how they propose to fit in a flyover at Wigston North Jn.

And I see restoration of the four track formation to Kettering will be done by 2017 with redoubling to Corby by 2016.

I remember someone claiming somewhere that putting the fourth track back would be impossible without vast costs because the formation is too narrow to meet current standards. Obviously they didn't understand what a derogation was or believed they were virtually impossible to get

 

[HowardGWR]

I didn't know Kidsgrove was in the East Midlands (page 11 of that document).

I'm glad you wrote that. I was busy with Google Maps thinking there must be two!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Obviously they didn't understand what a derogation was or believed they were virtually impossible to get

I rather suspect a derogation for four-track with no tenfoot(s) at 125mph might not be quick to get or straightforward.

 

[21C101]

I rather suspect a derogation for four-track with no tenfoot(s) at 125mph might not be quick to get or straightforward.

They appear to have managed it though. Wholesale rebuild of the formation wouldn't be doable by 2017 (given that they have not started yet) and would blow the cost of reinstatement out of the water.

Not as if it dosen't operate quite safely at 125 mph with no tenfoot in places between Sharnbrook and Elstree and no one objected to the recent linespeed upgrade to 125mph on those grounds.

Seems that common sense is starting to return.

 

[edwin_m]

Is 125mph attainable between Wellingborough and Kettering anyway?

 

[jopsuk]

On the link kindly provided by ltj87, on page 27 is a picture of Bubbles Spa at derby, I am not quite sure where that fits into future plans.

Looking through, yeah, erm, that looks like a "special massage parlour"? Why on earth is that in there? Would be fascinating to have the narration! I thought the shinkansen units on the previous slide were an odd inclusion, but that's inexplicable

 

[AM9]

Does that mean that the 387s when delivered will be able to go above 100mph when on the Thameslink fasts?

 

[21C101]

Is 125mph attainable between Wellingborough and Kettering anyway?

Probably not, but they are also putting the fourth track back between Wellingborough and north of Bedford (including through Sharnbrook tunnel) where it is 125mph on the fast lines.

I think it is fairly obvious now that the post electrification Corby services will run on the slow lines from Bedford northwards, so I do wonder whether they will get transferred to Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern to operate from St Pancras (in the same way as they will operate Kings Cross to Kings Lynn services).

Seems to me we will have 4 per hour to the north with 2 per hour to Corby

I guess this also makes possible longrterm station reopenings at Clapham/Oakley, Sharnbrook and Irchester/Rushden.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does that mean that the 387s when delivered will be able to go above 100mph when on the Thameslink fasts?

Its been said elsewhere on the Thameslink threads that they will not run above 100mph if used on Thameslink services.

Seems to me it was a mistake to build the class 700s without 110mph capability.

 

[Minilad]

On the link kindly provided by ltj87, on page 27 is a picture of Bubbles Spa at derby, I am not quite sure where that fits into future plans.

As journey times are shrunk it means more time for train crew PNBs at Derby. So they will need alternative things to do

 

[najaB]

Seems to me it was a mistake to build the class 700s without 110mph capability.

Would a 110mph design speed have been any more expensive (I'm guessing it would be), and would there be enough 110mph track and running to make it worth it?

 

[21C101]

Would a 110mph design speed have been any more expensive (I'm guessing it would be), and would there be enough 110mph track and running to make it worth it?

On the first question I don't know.

On the second question, yes, pretty well the entire Midland Mainline fast lines between London and Bedford which are used by Thameslink and the entire East Coast Main line fasts between London and Peterborough which are used by services that will be Thameslink after 2018.

I gather that they will actually be able to do 110mph because all new trains have to be able to exceed their maximum speed by 10% in tests. However 100mph will be the maxiumum in service speed.

 

[Class 170101]

I wonder how difficult it would be to upgrade them for 110mph operation once in service anyway, its been done with the 350/1s already remember.

Mind you they won't be able to do 110mph on the 3rd Rail. I don't know of any 3rd Rail installations capable of greater than 100mph.

 

[AM9]

I wonder how difficult it would be to upgrade them for 110mph operation once in service anyway, its been done with the 350/1s already remember.

Mind you they won't be able to do 110mph on the 3rd Rail. I don't know of any 3rd Rail installations capable of greater than 100mph.

High speed tests with a 442 when new established that 100mph was a practical maximum speed. The 442 did 108 or 109 on the SWML which was a world speed record as I recall.

 

[edwin_m]

Probably not, but they are also putting the fourth track back between Wellingborough and north of Bedford (including through Sharnbrook tunnel) where it is 125mph on the fast lines.

But here the slows are on a totally separate formation so the question of sub-standard ten-foots, which is where we came in on this part of the discussion, doesn't arise.

 

[W230]

Does that mean that the 387s when delivered will be able to go above 100mph when on the Thameslink fasts?

Recently received my 387 traction conversion course and they were very clear on the fact that we'd not be topping 100mph on TL routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

On the first question I don't know.

On the second question, yes, pretty well the entire Midland Mainline fast lines between London and Bedford which are used by Thameslink and the entire East Coast Main line fasts between London and Peterborough which are used by services that will be Thameslink after 2018.
.

110 saves only 3 seconds a mile over 100. So with the exception of the run from West Hampstead to St Albans, and from wherever the ECML rises over 100 to Stevenage, the 700s won't be spending sufficient time on the fasts to make use of 110. And even in these two sections, the saving would not be that great.

 

[21C101]

110 saves only 3 seconds a mile over 100. So with the exception of the run from West Hampstead to St Albans, and from wherever the ECML rises over 100 to Stevenage, the 700s won't be spending sufficient time on the fasts to make use of 110. And even in these two sections, the saving would not be that great.

Don't forget that in the peaks the roughly four per hour Thameslink superfasts ([St Pan]-[St Albs]-[Harp]-[Lut]-[Flit or Lea]-[Bed] only) trains run fast line all the way to/from Bedford South Junction.

And on the Thameslink, east coast line Peterborough services will be running fast line and then on the two track bits at Welwyn and especially north of Huntingdon where those 3 seconds a mile will all add up.

 

[The Planner]

In terms of timetablng it would be marginal as unless the 3 seconds start adding up to a more meaningful 20 odd seconds in a timing section then you wont be altering running times anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't forget that in the peaks the roughly four per hour Thameslink superfasts ([St Pan]-[St Albs]-[Harp]-[Lut]-[Flit or Lea]-[Bed] only) trains run fast line all the way to/from Bedford South Junction.

And on the Thameslink, east coast line Peterborough services will be running fast line and then on the two track bits at Welwyn and especially north of Huntingdon where those 3 seconds a mile will all add up.

Don't worry, I'm not forgetting. The MML timetable will look different come 2018, and the 'Flitwick flyers' may not be on the fasts all the way, as there will be more EMTs to worry about. The Peterboro trains on the fasts north of Stevenage will be 365s. And about half the route Huntingdon to Peterboro is only 100 anyway.

 

[21C101]

Don't worry, I'm not forgetting. The MML timetable will look different come 2018, and the 'Flitwick flyers' may not be on the fasts all the way, as there will be more EMTs to worry about. The Peterboro trains on the fasts north of Stevenage will be 365s. And about half the route Huntingdon to Peterboro is only 100 anyway.

Its virtually a given that Corby will go half hourly once electrified. So six per hour on the midland main line, not a massive difference

The "Flitwick Flyers" depart immediately after the pair of intercities (eg Intercities at xx55 and xx00 or xx.25 xx.30 with the "flyer" departing at xx.02 It has to make it to Bedford south junction before the xx.15 or xx.45 (which dosent run yet) catches it. 110mph capability would be quite useful expecially when there is slightly late running.

Can't see it changing as far as running to Bedford South. Possible they might go over at Flitwick but Leagrave unlikely as too much of a time penalty on the 40mph crossovers. They won't be going over at Radlett or Harpenden as they would get tangled up with the Luton or st Albans terminators (or a late running previous fast to St A and all stns to Bedford - the "flyers" frequently overtake those north of Luton).

365 to Peterborough, don't know where you have got that idea from. Certainly wont be 365. Not when they are going to be going 2 per hour to Horsham from then. There are obviously extra peak hour services to KX, which will be 365 or 377, but there is no reason why the Peterborough Horshams won't be the fasts with the slow line peak services terminating at KX, its too early to know.

Now if the peak hour Peterborough fasts were to be 110mph capable 387s then that would make more sense.