Has electrification to Windermere been authorised?

[davetheguard]

I was under the impression that the business case for electrification of the Windermere branch was being considered by Network Rail, and a decision on whether to proceed would be made if a case could be made. However, the way the following press release is worded suggests that electrification of the line is going ahead.

Is this correct?

www.gov.uk/government/news/baroness-kramer-views-rail-improvements-at-huyton-and-roby

...Baroness Kramer saw how work on the Northern Hub and North West Electrification Programme was progressing. Once completed in 2019, these schemes will increase capacity, slash journey times and improve reliability on train services across the region – generating more than £4 billion worth of economic benefits and up to 30,000 new jobs.

Network Rail has spent 18 months on the project to install a third track and make line speed improvements, allowing for faster services and removing a bottleneck from the network. Additional platforms are also being built, while other improvements include new lifts, improved accessibility and upgraded customer information systems...

 

[thealexweb]

Excellent news if true.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It seems to be "all but" approved.
This is the first time it, and Wigan-Bolton, has been listed along with other NW approved sections.
There are usually caveats about business case and value for money until final approval (which comes from the Treasury).
There is usually a political announcement too, to get the maximum PR.

There are no confirmed dates for either scheme from NR.
It's just possible that NR has come in under budget for the wider NW scheme and is able to spend the savings on wiring more lines.
That would be a good outcome, unlike the GW scheme which is late and over budget.

 

[thealexweb]

It seems to be "all but" approved.
This is the first time it, and Wigan-Bolton, has been listed along with other NW approved sections.
There are usually caveats about business case and value for money until final approval (which comes from the Treasury).
There is usually a political announcement too, to get the maximum PR.

There are no confirmed dates for either scheme from NR.
It's just possible that NR has come in under cost for the wider NW scheme and is able to spend the savings on wiring more lines.
That would be a good outcome, unlike the GW scheme which is late and over budget.

Where have the 'dates' that we have come from? December 2016 is frequently quoted for Windermere and December 2017 is quoted for Lostock Junction to Wigan North Western. Are these official estimates?

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...tment_to_electrify_Bolton___Wigan_train_line/

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Where have the 'dates' that we have come from? December 2016 is frequently quoted for Windermere and December 2017 is quoted for Lostock Junction to Wigan North Western. Are these official estimates?

Since the original NW scheme was re-approved by the present government, the completion date has been Dec 2016 (ie Stalybridge-Victoria-Blackpool).
The way DfT talked, they wanted the extensions finished at the same time.
NR publish milestones every 3 months with the CP4/5 plan updates, and they also show Dec 2016 at the moment (but heavily qualified by the GRIP process).
But it seems Preston-Blackpool is now March 2017, and I would expect Wigan-Bolton and Oxenholme-Windermere will be later in 2017.
The fact is, NR and Balfour Beatty have not confirmed a contract beyond the current Phase 2 yet, so nothing is certain.
Meanwhile, DfT continues to exhort NR to accelerate all the electrification programmes and add new lines to them.

 

[cle]

Would serving Bolton, Wigan and Preston in one service ever be worthwhile?

Perhaps as a Windermere service - leaving Scotland truly alone as a long distance (and maybe cutting Lancaster/Oxenholme from those as they'd still have London/Birmingham to Scotland ones).

Or Blackpool I suppose, but something needs to remain via Chorley!

 

[WatcherZero]

I think NW schemes are coming in in-line with budget, GWML on the other hand is massivley overbudget.

 

[snowball]

But it seems Preston-Blackpool is now March 2017

Is this published information? Is it online?

 

[route:oxford]

I think NW schemes are coming in in-line with budget, GWML on the other hand is massivley overbudget.

There is a lot of activism against the GWML electrification project.

It looks like thousands of lives will be ruined by short-term delays to the school run due to bridge closures.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There is a lot of activism against the GWML electrification project.

It looks like thousands of lives will be ruined by short-term delays to the school run due to bridge closures.

Good to know that the people of Berkshire/Oxfordshire/etc. have not lost their sense of perspective! :roll:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is this published information? Is it online?

I can't remember where I've seen it, possibly Rail (yes, I know).
The problem is the timescale for resignalling and remodelling of the line, not the electrification per se.
The electrification team will concentrate on the Manchester-Euxton Jn section instead.

 

[deltic08]

I was under the impression that the business case for electrification of the Windermere branch was being considered by Network Rail, and a decision on whether to proceed would be made if a case could be made. However, the way the following press release is worded suggests that electrification of the line is going ahead.

Is this correct?

www.gov.uk/government/news/baroness-kramer-views-rail-improvements-at-huyton-and-roby

Official DfT press release that usually accompanies a Ministers visit to a project. Must be true even if accidentally leaked.

 

[thealexweb]

Would serving Bolton, Wigan and Preston in one service ever be worthwhile?

Perhaps as a Windermere service - leaving Scotland truly alone as a long distance (and maybe cutting Lancaster/Oxenholme from those as they'd still have London/Birmingham to Scotland ones).

Or Blackpool I suppose, but something needs to remain via Chorley!

There are one daily service which does this. One TPE service runs Bolton -> Wigan North West -> Preston and continues to Barrow. Runs at about 22:40 at Bolton I think.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Since the original NW scheme was re-approved by the present government, the completion date has been Dec 2016 (ie Stalybridge-Victoria-Blackpool).
The way DfT talked, they wanted the extensions finished at the same time.
NR publish milestones every 3 months with the CP4/5 plan updates, and they also show Dec 2016 at the moment (but heavily qualified by the GRIP process).
But it seems Preston-Blackpool is now March 2017, and I would expect Wigan-Bolton and Oxenholme-Windermere will be later in 2017.
The fact is, NR and Balfour Beatty have not confirmed a contract beyond the current Phase 2 yet, so nothing is certain.
Meanwhile, DfT continues to exhort NR to accelerate all the electrification programmes and add new lines to them.

Balfours are preferred supplier for phases 3, 4 and 5 (subject to agreement on scope and price, I'd guess). I suspect they'll also get the next two, which are 6 and 7 (:roll.

Phase 4 (Preston via Bolton) is still 2016, Phase 3 (Blackpool) is 2017.

Lostock - Wigan is authorised and development work should start shortly. I understand Windermere is in a similar position. On this basis I suggest both schemes will be 2017 commissionings.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Lostock - Wigan is authorised and development work should start shortly. I understand Windermere is in a similar position. On this basis I suggest both schemes will be 2017 commissionings.

That's what I thought.
On the NW scheme, the first site work (masts on Castlefield Viaduct) was visible at Christmas 2011.
This was 2.5 years after being announced in July 2009 (and this included the delay for the Coalition gov to review this project and others).
TP electrification was announced in November 2011, but despite remarks about "quick wins" from starting early east of Leeds, no site work has started 2.5 years later.
In fact the CP5 milestone seems to suggest work will not start until March 2015.

 

[Class 170101]

I stand to be corrected on this but I believe I did see possessions in Rules of the Route (available on web) suggesting work may start later this year in respect of electrification on the LNE section between Huddersfield and Selby / York.

 

[WatcherZero]

Balfours are preferred supplier for phases 3, 4 and 5 (subject to agreement on scope and price, I'd guess). I suspect they'll also get the next two, which are 6 and 7 (:roll.

Phase 4 (Preston via Bolton) is still 2016, Phase 3 (Blackpool) is 2017.

Lostock - Wigan is authorised and development work should start shortly. I understand Windermere is in a similar position. On this basis I suggest both schemes will be 2017 commissionings.

As I understood it while the inital scheme was North Western they were looking at Wallgate too but the clearance issues meant it wouldnt be a cheap addon. Did they complete that second look?

 

[deltic08]

I stand to be corrected on this but I believe I did see possessions in Rules of the Route (available on web) suggesting work may start later this year in respect of electrification on the LNE section between Huddersfield and Selby / York.

In the Network Rail 2014-2019 Strategic Business Plan published online about Xmas 2012, it mentioned that trans Pennine electrification would start in York and work west towards Leeds instead of the other way when electrification was first announced. Work would start straight away on the 17 miles gap to Leeds with completion towards the end of 2014 instead of 2017. There was no mention of Selby. Obviously some slippage here.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In the Network Rail 2014-2019 Strategic Business Plan published online about Xmas 2012, it mentioned that trans Pennine electrification would start in York and work west towards Leeds instead of the other way when electrification was first announced. Work would start straight away on the 17 miles gap to Leeds with completion towards the end of 2014 instead of 2017. There was no mention of Selby. Obviously some slippage here.

The March 2014 CP5 Enhancement Plan does not even have TP electrification as a separate project from "Northern Programme - Yorkshire" which also includes capacity enhancements at various points off the TP route.
The Regulated Output (ie the one ORR is monitoring) is GRIP stage 3 completion in March 2015 - completion of design and option selection.
It then says GRIP 6 (implementation, ie digging holes and stringing wires) runs from March 2016 to December 2018.
It doesn't phase the completion in any way.
And there are still plenty of caveats about grid connections and the availability of plant, and a host of other things.
From what I have seen Carillion is preferred contractor for this, and they are also doing EGIP.
Maybe there is a clash between the two electrification projects.

 

[deltic08]

The March 2014 CP5 Enhancement Plan does not even have TP electrification as a separate project from "Northern Programme - Yorkshire" which also includes capacity enhancements at various points off the TP route.
The Regulated Output (ie the one ORR is monitoring) is GRIP stage 3 completion in March 2015 - completion of design and option selection.
It then says GRIP 6 (implementation, ie digging holes and stringing wires) runs from March 2016 to December 2018.
It doesn't phase the completion in any way.
And there are still plenty of caveats about grid connections and the availability of plant, and a host of other things.
From what I have seen Carillion is preferred contractor for this, and they are also doing EGIP.
Maybe there is a clash between the two electrification projects.

Church Fenton Parish Council has just been notified only three weeks ago that work will begin mid 2015 on replacing the arched road overbridge at the station, one of four that will require lifting between there and Cross Gates. I only hope that it is rebuilt to allow easing of the 70mph curve.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Should Windermere, once conjoined electrically to the WCML, have direct rail services that would bring visitors in from the large Manchester and Liverpool conurbation areas that are also seeing electrification projects.. Have the various councils, county and local, issued any aspirational statements on how rail can certainly assist with regard to the matter of the amount of road traffic, especially in the March to October period.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Should Windermere, once conjoined electrically to the WCML, have direct rail services that would bring visitors in from the large Manchester and Liverpool conurbation areas that are also seeing electrification projects.. Have the various councils, county and local, issued any aspirational statements on how rail can certainly assist with regard to the matter of the amount of road traffic, especially in the March to October period.

Cumbria CC is a partner in Rail North.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

As I understood it while the inital scheme was North Western they were looking at Wallgate too but the clearance issues meant it wouldnt be a cheap addon. Did they complete that second look?

Probably not, yet.

 

[IanXC]

In the Network Rail 2014-2019 Strategic Business Plan published online about Xmas 2012, it mentioned that trans Pennine electrification would start in York and work west towards Leeds instead of the other way when electrification was first announced. Work would start straight away on the 17 miles gap to Leeds with completion towards the end of 2014 instead of 2017. There was no mention of Selby. Obviously some slippage here.

There was another document of a similar vintage which described Neville Hill to Hambleton West as the priority, for diversion of EC services to Leeds. I suppose whatever 'quick wins' there were discussions around could have been on the back of other renewal/enhancement works, which may have been re-phased.

 

[northwichcat]

I think that's a rushed press release that no-one's checked the facts for. It's talking about faster journeys between Manchester and Hull, yet it's proposed Manchester-Hull will be semi-fasts from Piccadilly, with the express services from Victoria all going to York/Newcastle.

Also it says "this will mean modern, reliable electric trains will be able to run across the region." Putting 'be able to' in that sentence seems to suggest while modern electric trains could run across the region, you won't get modern trains!

 

[snowball]

I think that's a rushed press release that no-one's checked the facts for. It's talking about faster journeys between Manchester and Hull, yet it's proposed Manchester-Hull will be semi-fasts from Piccadilly, with the express services from Victoria all going to York/Newcastle.

Also it says "this will mean modern, reliable electric trains will be able to run across the region." Putting 'be able to' in that sentence seems to suggest while modern electric trains could run across the region, you won't get modern trains!

Are you referring here to something mentioned in a previous post? If so, which one?

 

[northwichcat]

Are you referring here to something mentioned in a previous post? If so, which one?

The link in post #1.

 

[ianhr]

As I have said before, on other threads, there is less than one year to go until the General Election. Unless final wiring contracts have been signed off before that there will be another year's delay while a new Government reviews all spending, or even cancels the electrification plans. They could just take the line that the North has put up with Pacers and Sprinters for the past 25+ years so a few more won't make much difference.

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont think any incoming Labour government would do the same Six month freeze the Coalition government did, theyve committed to maintaining the Conservative spending plans the same was they did after the 1997 election.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Projects explicitly in the CP5 settlement will be OK because HMG can't unpick that easily.
I can't see them backtracking on the major electrification schemes (NW, GW, TP, MML, even the Valleys) because of the outcry in the regions.
Electric Spine might be vulnerable unless NR gets its plans organised (the outputs are still undefined).
But franchise and procurement policy might go up in the air - just in time for the next batch of new train orders.
ICEC will have been awarded by then, barring complications.
Crossrail/IEP/Thameslink are all safe.
Northern Hub will be OK as long as the Ordsall Curve is approved by then (ie planning permission).
HS2 - dunno!