Has a mutiple unit ever been criticised for being too long?

[route:oxford]

There are frequently comments in these forums regarding multiple units being too short for their job. Similar stories are in the general press...

But has there even been a new multiple unit that has been heavily criticised for being ordered/specified with too many coaches?

 

[Lampshade]

No, because every MU ordered in the last 30 years has been with the minimum number of coaches they could get away with.

 

[Waddon]

I expect there will be some press wingeing when Crossrail initially starts up, along the lines of X billion pound railway, and the trains are all empty - no doubt through the usual dodgy press tactic of looking at 10 car trains departing from the extremities off-peak, where it will take a little time to build up the business, especially, I would imagine, trains starting from Maidenhead, where there is currently light demand during much of the day...

... although to be fair they should have stuck to the flexibility of 2 x 5 car trains instead of 1 x 10...

 

[Tim R-T-C]

In theory an MU should only really need 3 or 4 coaches as they should be coupled together to fill peak demand. Unfortunately most operating companies will only operate units at the shortest possible length, thus causing the complaints.

 

[Minstral25]

I expect there will be some press wingeing when Crossrail initially starts up, along the lines of X billion pound railway, and the trains are all empty - no doubt through the usual dodgy press tactic of looking at 10 car trains departing from the extremities off-peak, where it will take a little time to build up the business, especially, I would imagine, trains starting from Maidenhead, where there is currently light demand during much of the day...

... although to be fair they should have stuck to the flexibility of 2 x 5 car trains instead of 1 x 10...

The new Thameslink trains are 12 and 8 car length. I think this is a good idea as it stop short formations on overcrowded trains - lots of off-peak services need longer trains but because they are off peak the operators often put short ones on.

The press may have a go but the passengers will know from the improved comfort - plus they are bought for a 30/40 year plan and will get busier (if possible!!) once the more regular service gets going

 

[MCR247]

In theory an MU should only really need 3 or 4 coaches as they should be coupled together to fill peak demand. Unfortunately most operating companies will only operate units at the shortest possible length, thus causing the complaints.

What a load of rubbish

I'm sure EMT were over the moon with the amount of stock it got at first etc and they really wanted to have to put 153s on Nottingham - Norwich :roll:

 

[Kneedown]

Perhaps not quite the answer you are after, but some EMT Conductors complain more now that most Liverpools are four coaches, as they have to walk twice as far!

 

[Bellwater]

What a load of rubbish

I'm sure EMT were over the moon with the amount of stock it got at first etc and they really wanted to have to put 153s on Nottingham - Norwich :roll:

2x153 went to Liverpool last night, third time I can remember it happening.

2xUnit causes problems anyway, as when you get to a short platform some passengers claim to have not heard the 'short platform' announcement that the crew have made often 2-3 times over.

 

[tsr]

Often Southern could get away with 4 coaches on the 377s into and out of London Bridge around midday that go to - or start at - exotic destinations such as Horsham and Reigate. However, they are occasionally busy for whatever reason. I happen to know this because of the off peak services I frequent to and from London, what with university timetables being somewhat flexible.

I have known the 1151 (I think) service to be two-thirds empty, with 8 coaches.

Naturally, any set of 377s which joins or divides en-route has a reasonable excuse for having 4 coaches in each section even when it appears not to be busy on departure.

EDIT: Some services are, of course, formed of 4 coaches.

 

[jamesst]

I did actually have a passenger complain to me yesterday that the train had too many coaches!!

 

[jon0844]

FCC run a few 6-car 313s during the day that are mostly empty right through to Moorgate - at best picking up a few people at Finsbury Park.

They do make up for this by running 3-car services at weekends when there's football on or some other big event!

 

[Lampshade]

I suppose an 11 car 390 will have too many coaches, purely because there is so much wasted space on board - you could stage a small tennis tournament in the vestibules. You could easily fit an 11 car 390's worth of seats into a 2+9 HST or a 225.

 

[junglejames]

There are frequently comments in these forums regarding multiple units being too short for their job. Similar stories are in the general press...

But has there even been a new multiple unit that has been heavily criticised for being ordered/specified with too many coaches?

Not heavily criticised, but I think EMTs 222s are too long. When you reach 7 coaches, you shouldnt be using DMUs. 7 small engines is far too inefficient.
So it is possible to have MUs that are too long, but you wont see much criticism for it.

 

[O L Leigh]

I remember a punter asking me why I was hooking together two Cl317s for the 2132 CBG-LST one evening, but I don't think that counts as heavy criticism.

O L Leigh

 

[MCR247]

Southern run 8 cars to Bignor off peak when a 153 would have been fine!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Southern run 8 cars to Bignor off peak when a 153 would have been fine!

I know that Bignor (in West Sussex), with a population of about 100, has many good old buildings in its environs, with a very fine selection of Roman mosaics from the excavated Roman villa, but I cannot ever remember it having a railway station.

 

[Lampshade]

I know that Bignor (in West Sussex), with a population of about 100, has many good old buildings in its environs, with a very fine selection of Roman mosaics from the excavated Roman villa, but I cannot ever remember it having a railway station.

Very true.

He could mean Bognor (Regis)

 

[Minstral25]

Southern run 8 cars to Bignor off peak when a 153 would have been fine!

Bignor is a long way from the railway, but Bognor trains are often standing room only when closer to London all through the day due to their calling patterns. Problems is where to add the additional carriages as they already join Portsmouth/Southampton trains at Horsham and a third attachment would take too long.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....has there even been a new multiple unit that has been heavily criticised for being ordered/specified with too many coaches?

I can't say I have heard any 'heavy' criticisms of trains for being too long (it's usually smelly toilets, underfloor engines or no luggage space), but I suspect there are two reasons for that.

Few new trains are longer than the trains they replace (and fewer thatactually have more seats)

Those that are longer, usually replace trains that were too small to begin with.

 

[43167]

Not heavily criticised, but I think EMTs 222s are too long. When you reach 7 coaches, you shouldnt be using DMUs. 7 small engines is far too inefficient.
So it is possible to have MUs that are too long, but you wont see much criticism for it.

I agree. Remember, some of them were built as 9-car. No passenger train should need 9 engines.

In the 50's & 60's it was possible to build a DMU with unpowered trailer coaches, what stops them in the 21st century?.

 

[Mojo]

A customer complained to me once that a Pendolino was too long, but I think it was the length of the First class section she was complaining about rather than the actual train.

 

[ainsworth74]

In the 50's & 60's it was possible to build a DMU with unpowered trailer coaches, what stops them in the 21st century?.

The need for speed (those 50s and 60s DMUs wouldn't do 125mph) and the desire for EMU like acceleration requiring a very high power to weight ratio with plenty of powered axles.

 

[43167]

The need for speed (those 50s and 60s DMUs wouldn't do 125mph) and the desire for EMU like acceleration requiring a very high power to weight ratio with plenty of powered axles.

Something which HST's can do quite easy on 2.

 

[ainsworth74]

Something which HST's can do quite easy on 2.

Two much bigger engines than is found under a 22x (certainly in Valenta days it was in the order of 2,250bhp per power car compared with just 750bhp per per engine under a 22x) and they still can't accelerate as fast as 22xs can (hence why on XC HSTs are in special paths because they can't keep to Voyager timings).

If you want to go fast then sure you can do it on fewer engines (though you'll struggle to fit HST engines under a train floor) but you won't get the acceleration that they were also going for with the 22x design.

 

[Greeny]

Here is a picture of one that was a bit too short at Lime Street.

G

 

[sprinterguy]

A customer complained to me once that a Pendolino was too long, but I think it was the length of the First class section she was complaining about rather than the actual train.

That's one thing that I was gojng to mention: It'll require the lengthening of the Pendos to eleven carriages to give them a decent ratio of standard to first class accomodation. Not a problem with the length of the trains at all, just with the excessive length of the first class section.
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Something which HST's can do quite easy on 2.

Not nearly to the extent of the Voyager and Meridian units, as Ainsworth74 outlines above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Here is a picture of one that was a bit too short at Lime Street.

G

That's an absolute gem of a picture. First time I've seen a shot of 142059 "in situ" after it went through the buffer stops. I didn't realise that it was quite that serious! hock: Thanks for posting it.

 

[NSEFAN]

The length of the train can be a problem when you have, say, a class 444 Desiro stopping at a station where the platforms are slightly too short. Because of the "special" nature of the door system, only a single door or whole unit can be unlocked, so pax have to use one door near the front of the train, even though most of the train is actually in the platform.

I still don't know why nobody thought about this, especially the likes of MK3s in HST rakes have had full selective door opening for years. Perhaps someone on here could explain?

 

[Yew]

Two much bigger engines than is found under a 22x (certainly in Valenta days it was in the order of 2,250bhp per power car compared with just 750bhp per per engine under a 22x) and they still can't accelerate as fast as 22xs can (hence why on XC HSTs are in special paths because they can't keep to Voyager timings).

If you want to go fast then sure you can do it on fewer engines (though you'll struggle to fit HST engines under a train floor) but you won't get the acceleration that they were also going for with the 22x design.

Of course, HST's are diesel electric, (albeit 3 phase AC, thats cant be got from OHLE) So you could use the valentas to power underfloor electric motors. Giving a quiet ride and fast acceleration

Didnt West Coast use shortened HST's to stick to voyager paths (4/5 coaches?) Maybe if we added another power car to a HST set, we could get better acceleration.

That would release a fair few MK3's into service, and the other car from each set could replace the MK4 DVT on IC225 sets, to allow better acceleration, and in turn those DVT's used with the spare HST coaching stock with newbuild Traxx Locos or similar

 

[sprinterguy]

Didnt West Coast use shortened HST's to stick to voyager paths (4/5 coaches?) Maybe if we added another power car to a HST set, we could get better acceleration.

That would release a fair few MK3's into service, and the other car from each set could replace the MK4 DVT on IC225 sets, to allow better acceleration, and in turn those DVT's used with the spare HST coaching stock with newbuild Traxx Locos or similar

Virgin Crosscountry operated 2+5 HST formations to allow them to keep to time with Voyager schedules, I'm not sure whether the West Coast HSTs along the North Wales Coast were similarly shortened.

Could you clarify what you are proposing here? How/where would you add a third power car to an HST set? And if you were to do that, how would there be any spares left over to work with mark 4 rakes? Plus, that then raises the peculiar situation of having diesels running under the wires as part of an electric formation.

Although I do think that replacing the DVT of a mark 4 set with an HST power car would be a "quick fix" to do away with the requirement for HSTs on East Coast, so that mark 4s could operate the off wires services. At the time of specifying the production HST power cars, a 3,000hp engine that would fit into the bodyshell was offered (and of course the East Coast class 254 sets were originally meant to be uprated at 2,500hp), but it was turned down on the grounds of increased axle weights and fuel consumption when a 2,250hp power unit was all that would be required to meet the timings envisaged. If the HST power cars intended to be used with mark 4 rakes could be retro-fitted with such a power unit, that would ensure they had enough "grunt" to maintain timings off the wires.

Of course, it wouldn't be possible at the moment as there are insufficient mark 4 rakes to go round as it is, so it would require a new build of trains to replace the 225s on the electric services.

 

[route:oxford]

I agree. Remember, some of them were built as 9-car. No passenger train should need 9 engines.

In the 50's & 60's it was possible to build a DMU with unpowered trailer coaches, what stops them in the 21st century?.

A bit like the class 124 perhaps?

8 engines in a 6 car unit.