Harrington Humps are useless ...

[Leslie Fletcher]

… if there is nothing to tell you where on the train to make use of them. Last week I had reason to alight at North Llanrwst, which has Harrington Humps on both platforms. The stop board on the southbound platform is positioned so that the Harrington Hump is adjacent to the back (second) coach but, unfortunately, I sat in the front coach. In a Trivia thread for the largest step down at a Network Rail station (No – I am not suggesting one!) alighting at North Llanrwst from the front coach of a 197 would be in with a shout. Fortunately the train manager was on hand to help me down, having opened the train doors from door nearest where I had sat.

Why is there no information readily available (or have I missed it?) about where in the train is easiest for alighting? The information on the National Rail website about step-free access at North Llanrwst amounts to “There might be.” Could this not be part of the recorded announcement as a train nears the next stopping station?

 

[30907]

A recorded announcement depends on the train stopping correctly - I am surprised the TM didn't suggest you moved when they checked tickets.

 

[The exile]

Where was the wheelchair space on the train? That should be a clue as to which door is supposed to stop by the hump?

 

[800001]

Where was the wheelchair space on the train? That should be a clue as to which door is supposed to stop by the hump?

But why should a customer have to think 'where is the wheelchair space'

You would think a nice, simple announcement from the guard would suffice.

 

[Sheridan]

But why should a customer have to think 'where is the wheelchair space'

You would think a nice, simple announcement from the guard would suffice.

And the 197s on the route can come facing either way - but always stop in the same place. So there’s no guarantee that the wheelchair space door will be on the hump anyway. As long as the ramp can be safely used then the Harrington Hump isn’t that relevant to a wheelchair user - it’s more helpful for those who are ambulant bjt may struggle with a larger step up or down.

Edit: the wheelchair space will always be one of the middle two doors on a 2-car 197, so if both of these are on the hump then yes, looking for the wheelchair space would help. I can’t remember how long the hump is at North Llanrwst.

 

[edwin_m]

Somewhat similar quandry at Avoncliff, although applying to the whole platform not any raised part. They always make announcements for people to move to the front door, where the conductor has also moved and opens it with the local door control. This only works because the platforms are accessed by steep steps so wheelchair users would not be able to board, and any that alighted would be trapped on the platform until rescued by the next train.

 

[172007]

Where i work workers turned up, installed the humps seemingly randomly. No conductors or drivers were it seems asked as to where they should be placed and has resulted in them not being used to their full potential. One main problem is they are not installed consistently distance wise from the stopping marker boards.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A recorded announcement depends on the train stopping correctly - I am surprised the TM didn't suggest you moved when they checked tickets.

That would probably depend on whether it was visually obvious that the OP would have trouble with the step down. If a person is not in a wheelchair and not obviously struggling to walk (which the TM wouldn't be able to tell anyway if the passenger is sitting when their ticket is checked), then the TM would presumably have no reason to think the advice was necessary.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Where was the wheelchair space on the train? That should be a clue as to which door is supposed to stop by the hump?

The humps were not designed for wheelchair use (although wheelchair users can use them if appropriate).

They were designed as an extremely cheap solution to the problem of low platforms on many routes.

There was no budget for major platform alterations and they had to be positioned wherever they could be accommodated on a platform, hence they could be at the rear, middle or front of a train.

On the Cumbrian coast route, the Conductors used to announce their position on approach.

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

That would probably depend on whether it was visually obvious that the OP would have trouble with the step down. If a person is not in a wheelchair and not obviously struggling to walk (which the TM wouldn't be able to tell anyway if the passenger is sitting when their ticket is checked), then the TM would presumably have no reason to think the advice was necessary.

It could have been hard to judge whether I would have trouble with the step down. I am quite elderly but carrying a rucksack with walking poles after a walk along a section of the Wales Coast Path. However, I think that misses my point. Aware of my limits, I would have used the Harrington Hump had I known where to do so.

 

[zwk500]

That would probably depend on whether it was visually obvious that the OP would have trouble with the step down. If a person is not in a wheelchair and not obviously struggling to walk (which the TM wouldn't be able to tell anyway if the passenger is sitting when their ticket is checked), then the TM would presumably have no reason to think the advice was necessary.

It could have been hard to judge whether I would have trouble with the step down. I am quite elderly but carrying a rucksack with walking poles after a walk along a section of the Wales Coast Path. However, I think that misses my point. Aware of my limits, I would have used the Harrington Hump had I known where to do so.

And this gets back to a major problem with the UK's approach to accessibility - it's generally available, but on request, and that makes requesting it "a thing", which means it isn't truly accessible. Having 1 Harrington Hump per train doesn't help if it could be at any door on any given station. The UK is getting better at this (in general, not just rail) but there's a long way to go.

The solutions are either infrastructure led (e.g. put humps at every door), operations led (e.g. make sure it will always be the same door every time, turning trains out of service if necessary), or information led (e.g. have far more visual and audible notice saying 'the harrington hump will be at door 3 in coach C at the next station'). A mix of all 3 is also possible.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It could have been hard to judge whether I would have trouble with the step down. I am quite elderly but carrying a rucksack with walking poles after a walk along a section of the Wales Coast Path. However, I think that misses my point. Aware of my limits, I would have used the Harrington Hump had I known where to do so.

Oh sure, and I don't disagree with your wider point that the humps are not so useful if they aren't in consistent and predictable locations. I was replying to the specific suggestion that the guard should've warned you when checking your tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2025 ==

And this gets back to a major problem with the UK's approach to accessibility - it's generally available, but on request, and that makes requesting it "a thing", which means it isn't truly accessible.

While I agree that's an issue and it would be better if accessibility is freely available without needing to be requested, I think in reality making things available on request is pragmatically the best solution considering the infrastructure that we actually have. Making absolutely everything fully accessible would require so much building work, so much redesign of stations in some cases, and so on, as to be completely unachievable in the near future. And besides, it would be an enormous expense to benefit only a small minority of rail users, so the cost-benefit analysis would never stack up. For that reason making small modifications that gradually allow more accessibility - albeit often only with staff intervention that requires people to request the help - is not ideal but is the only workable way forward.

 

[zwk500]

While I agree that's an issue and it would be better if accessibility is freely available without needing to be requested, I think in reality making things available on request is pragmatically the best solution considering the infrastructure that we actually have. Making absolutely everything fully accessible would require so much building work, so much redesign of stations in some cases, and so on, as to be completely unachievable in the near future. And besides, it would be an enormous expense to benefit only a small minority of rail users, so the cost-benefit analysis would never stack up. For that reason making small modifications that gradually allow more accessibility - albeit often only with staff intervention that requires people to request the help - is not ideal but is the only workable way forward.

While I completely get the practicalities about making so much change so quickly there are a few counterpoints - If we keep making excuses we'll never get any where. Yes, the infrastructure's 200 years old but that means we've had 200 years to fix things. but perhaps more importantly: - There are zero-cost ways to do it.

In this specific case, if the OP had heard an announcement saying 'the next station is North Llanwrst, the level boarding for this train will be at door 2 of Coach B' they would have known exactly where to be for easier boarding and alighting. Zero things would have needed to be changed on the infrastructure. There would have been a small cost to set up the data for the announcements but no more than if it's a short platform. If the train was running in reverse formation for whatever reason the Guard can make a manual correction on the day.

 

[edwin_m]

If the train was running in reverse formation for whatever reason the Guard can make a manual correction on the day.

For most DMU routes the orientation of the train is essentially random, so it would have to be set up either manually or automatically to take account of which way round the train was that day. Alternatively, have a system like Southern use where the information system displays the number of the coach from front to back.

 

[Krokodil]

In a Trivia thread for the largest step down at a Network Rail station (No – I am not suggesting one!) alighting at North Llanrwst from the front coach of a 197 would be in with a shout.

Nah, not by a long way, North Llanrwst is trivial compared to a lot of the others. The winner would have been the Up platform at Ty Croes which was as good as at rail level before its rebuild. Bodorgan still has a wooden set of steps to drag to the door. Chester platform 4 isn't quite as bad but as it's a busy station it really needs fixing.

That would probably depend on whether it was visually obvious that the OP would have trouble with the step down. If a person is not in a wheelchair and not obviously struggling to walk (which the TM wouldn't be able to tell anyway if the passenger is sitting when their ticket is checked), then the TM would presumably have no reason to think the advice was necessary.

Sometimes if I spot someone struggling there I'll hold the train while they go to another door. I don't routinely make a point of telling people though, I can never remember myself!

Tal-y-Cafn on the other hand is much worse and I do advise people (regardless of apparent ability) to use the second door from the front in either direction. At the north end of the platform I find it hard work, despite being pretty fit.

 

[zwk500]

For most DMU routes the orientation of the train is essentially random, so it would have to be set up either manually or automatically to take account of which way round the train was that day. Alternatively, have a system like Southern use where the information system displays the number of the coach from front to back.

It's a little more involved but given the driver will be setting the train up from a certain cab it would be possible to use that as the formation descriptor