Happy with contactless - now everywhere??

[Howardh]

After returning from a day in London and using contactless travel for the first time - and checking my account to see it's correct - I'm impressed!

How close are we to having a similar system for all trains, long distance and commuter? I can see one good argument against it would be the different TOC's; but we buy one paper ticket which can cover several TOC's?

But ideally, will we ever be able to tap in @ Lostock and out at Windermere - or even include bus journeys in the fare?

OR is the situation regarding so many different fares + peak times preventing this happening?

Someone on here will be in the know!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Too complicated for the mainline I think but certainly local bus companies should look at it, and I believe are.

 

[Hadders]

It won't happen on national rail. It works in London because the fares involved are of relative low value and a maximum charge for failing to to tap in and out is only around £10 (Mike WH will know the exact amount).

Consider tapping in at Penzance but forgetting to tap out at my destination - how much should the maximum fare be? It'll be far too high if I've only gone one stop or nowhere near enough (and open to massive abuse) if I travel to the other end of the country.

 

[Howardh]

Too complicated for the mainline I think but certainly local bus companies should look at it, and I believe are.

Thanks, that reminded me I think there is a trial in Greater Manchester (??) If so, anyone know how it's going? Can't see why we can't have more-or-less the exact system here - bus/tram/train that they have in London.
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Consider tapping in at Penzance but forgetting to tap out at my destination - how much should the maximum fare be? It'll be far too high if I've only gone one stop or nowhere near enough (and open to massive abuse) if I travel to the other end of the country.

That's a good point although it could concentrate the mind of the tapper! One obvious difficulty (I may be wrong) is if you had two or three adjoining regions operating contactless, so you tap in in Gtr Manchester and out in West Yorkshire - could a system cope with that?

 

[Hadders]

Thanks, that reminded me I think there is a trial in Greater Manchester (??) If so, anyone know how it's going? Can't see why we can't have more-or-less the exact system here - bus/tram/train that they have in London.
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That's a good point although it could concentrate the mind of the tapper! One obvious difficulty (I may be wrong) is if you had two or three adjoining regions operating contactless, so you tap in in Gtr Manchester and out in West Yorkshire - could a system cope with that?

Imagine the outcry in the Daily Wail. A pensioner travelled one stop, thought they'd tapped in and out and were hit with a £500+ maximum fare! It'd all be the fault of the railway...

 

[swt_passenger]

That's a good point although it could concentrate the mind of the tapper! One obvious difficulty (I may be wrong) is if you had two or three adjoining regions operating contactless, so you tap in in Gtr Manchester and out in West Yorkshire - could a system cope with that?

Yes with back office software that communicated properly. But widespread "charge as you go" needs nearly 100% ticket gates.

That's generally why it works in London OK, with defined maximum fares being charged if you accidentally finish up with an open-ended journey.

 

[mattdickinson]

It wouldn't surprise me if contactless eventually covered most of the Network Area (using TfL's back office).

For intercity use, the only model I can see being feasible is that of gates and on train inspection matching the card to pre-purchased eTickets.

 

[najaB]

But ideally, will we ever be able to tap in @ Lostock and out at Windermere - or even include bus journeys in the fare?

As others have said the biggest obstacle is the fact that possible fares from (for example) Dundee are as low as £2.20 to Invergowrie or as high as £225 to Saltash - both of which are ungated stations. How would the system know which fare to charge if I don't tap out?

 

[Howardh]

As others have said the biggest obstacle is the fact that possible fares from (for example) Dundee are as low as £2.20 to Invergowrie or as high as £225 to Saltash - both of which are ungated stations. How would the system know which fare to charge if I don't tap out?

Probably getting into the realms of science fiction here, but if you could tap in with your mobile phone, could it track your journey so it registers your final station, even if you forget? Either way, until the problem of maximum fares is sorted out it won't be happening nationwide.

Thanks for the input!

 

[WillPS]

Probably getting into the realms of science fiction here, but if you could tap in with your mobile phone, could it track your journey so it registers your final station, even if you forget? Either way, until the problem of maximum fares is sorted out it won't be happening nationwide.

Thanks for the input!

Not really. GPS rinses battery, mast triangulation isn't accurate enough.

 

[Howardh]

Not really. GPS rinses battery, mast triangulation isn't accurate enough.

Yup, I get that, but someday we will be pinpointed to the nearest metre wherever we are and batteries will last longer than they do now, I suppose.
Then it's the Big Brother question :cry:

 

[Mojo]

Probably getting into the realms of science fiction here, but if you could tap in with your mobile phone, could it track your journey so it registers your final station, even if you forget? Either way, until the problem of maximum fares is sorted out it won't be happening nationwide.

Thanks for the input!

lsn't that pretty much what the Greater Anglia "Multipass" trial did last year?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=114529
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...t-fare-after-travelled-multipass-british-rail

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Probably getting into the realms of science fiction here, but if you could tap in with your mobile phone, could it track your journey so it registers your final station, even if you forget? Either way, until the problem of maximum fares is sorted out it won't be happening nationwide.

Thanks for the input!

Alternatively how about a system where before you board your train you tell a member of rail staff where you'd like to go, he then gives you a small piece of card clearly stating your destination and in return you give him an agreed sum of money?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not really. GPS rinses battery, mast triangulation isn't accurate enough.

With a sensibly-defined zonal fare system mast triangulation may well be enough.
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Alternatively how about a system where before you board your train you tell a member of rail staff where you'd like to go, he then gives you a small piece of card clearly stating your destination and in return you give him an agreed sum of money?

Well, there's a revolutionary idea

I'd go for that one provided enough of said members of rail staff (or machines) were provided so I didn't have to queue unnecessarily even at busy times, and the railway could give a commitment of "arrive 10 minutes before your train and you will be able to board, 15 minutes at larger stations" or somesuch - try MKC in the morning peak and you'll be lucky with 30 if you haven't got a ticket.

Otherwise I'm happy to see technology that prevents me needing to do so.

 

[greatkingrat]

Even if you do have accurate location, you would still need to distinguish between someone travelling A-B-C by train, and someone travelling A-B by train, then B-C by bus/car/foot etc.

 

[Wallsendmag]

How does it account for 1st Class?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Similar to the Dutch system I guess - you select your travel preference and can change it when not on a journey. They do it at TVMs.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I really can't see contactless working for a £500 ticket


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jordeh]

It is also worth pointing out that contactless payments are currently restricted to transactions of £30 or less.

I imagine this will continue to increase over the coming years, however it is very difficult to imagine it over £100. Bear in mind that you are covered for fraudulent use of your contactless card if it is stolen. If someone stole your card and did a few £200 contactless transactions, it would become unsustainable for the banks very quickly.

The likes of Apple Pay and Android Pay circumvent this as they provide an extra layer of finger print security. But if we're using smartphones we're just back to eTicketing really. Using the NFC capabilities to open ticket barriers is an exciting prospect though.

 

[MikeWh]

It is also worth pointing out that contactless payments are currently restricted to transactions of £30 or less.

Yes, but not when the transit mode is used. You can quite happily travel between Gatwick and Victoria P13/14 all day racking up £19.80 each time. At the end of the day a single charge will be made to your bank for whatever that days total is. This is why transit contactless authorises the card in the background so that they can stop it if collecting is likely to be a problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see the future being true e-ticketing for mainline rail and contactless for city transport networks. There may be some overlap, e.g. for purely local journeys within a city zone on rail contactless could also work, like it does in London.

 

[ravenik45]

I can see contactless working in parts of the Great Western Main Line especially as Crossrail's opening soon up to Reading.

The only issue is if you have a railcard, there should be a system wherein you can store your railcard in your contactless card / Apple Pay.

Then again, the Oyster network could just be extended to Reading... or implement a similar system to the c2c Smartcard.

 

[Deerfold]

Oyster will be used throughout Crossrail. It's not yet clear if it will be valid on non-crossrail trains.

 

[Hadders]

Oyster will be used throughout Crossrail. It's not yet clear if it will be valid on non-crossrail trains.

I suspect it'll need to be valid on non-crossrail trains into Paddington/Waterloo. I suspect it'll operate in a similar way to how Watrford Junction does with London Midland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only issue is if you have a railcard, there should be a system wherein you can store your railcard in your contactless card / Apple Pay.

It would quite possibly be easier to issue the Railcard as a pseudo-payment card that, like something like the Travelex Supercard, simply bills all payments on directly to a configured credit or debit card. It could I suppose also be issued as a mobile app.

 

[MikeWh]

I suspect it'll need to be valid on non-crossrail trains into Paddington/Waterloo. I suspect it'll operate in a similar way to how Watrford Junction does with London Midland.

I doubt it will be valid into Waterloo. Unless someone is going to pay for Oyster readers at all the SWT stations towards Feltham. And if they do, I can guarantee that the implimentation will be as flawed as the Gatwick one currently is.

 

[mattdickinson]

I doubt it will be valid into Waterloo. Unless someone is going to pay for Oyster readers at all the SWT stations towards Feltham. And if they do, I can guarantee that the implimentation will be as flawed as the Gatwick one currently is.

Oyster has had intermediate stations at which it is not valid previously, such as South Hampstead and Kilburn High Road under Silverlink Metro.

 

[MikeWh]

Oyster has had intermediate stations at which it is not valid previously, such as South Hampstead and Kilburn High Road under Silverlink Metro.

In those days it was only valid on a small subset of NR lines. These days it is pretty much anything. If they had been happy to miss stations out I think Gatwick would have gone live on it's own. Also, if they're going to allow Reading to Feltham, will they also allow Reading to Redhill?

 

[jon0844]

Imagine the outcry in the Daily Wail. A pensioner travelled one stop, thought they'd tapped in and out and were hit with a £500+ maximum fare! It'd all be the fault of the railway...

You could have a penalty/max fare of £40 or something - and then ensure you still have proper inspections (with people having connected devices that can see when/where a CPC tapped in).

You certainly couldn't come up with a max fare in the hundreds.

But the limitation is that a CPC can't be used to make payments above £30. No bank would allow a (potentially stolen) card to be used without a PIN for a trip from Plymouth to Aberdeen or Inverness!

 

[gordonthemoron]

With a contactless card, you have to make a non-contactless transaction with PIN every so often or contactless stops working. How does that work with TfL ticket barriers/buses?