Happy Beeching Anniversary

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In terms of route miles and effect clearly Beeching. I'm sorry but the Woodhead was not all that important in the grand scheme of things and would only have become slightly useful in the last few years.

As with any Beeching thread I'll trot out my standard view point. The report was necessary there was a hell of a lot of track/stations that was surplus to requirements and needed to be closed. But there were also routes that were closed that should have stayed open or at the very least have been protected (but this was a different age) for instance York - Beverley, the Waverley Line or some of the Devon/Cornish branches. It is also worth remembering that it did have positives, the introduction of Liner trains for example was a great success. Finally Beeching was a tool to achieve an end he was given a remit by Government and achieved that goal. Personally I blame the Governments of the day more than I blame Beeching (particularly the about face by the incoming Labour government).

The Alan Williams "end of the tome" article in the April 2013 issue of Modern Railways sees this matter in context of the 50 year period. The Ministry of Transport involvement over that period makes really sorry reading.

 

[swcovas]

The coast line was famous as the TUCC inquiry into its closure actually accepted any closure would cause hardship. The line crosses a number of estuary's that by road involve lengthy inland detours most noticeably the Mawddach Estuary - Barmouth Bridge. The detour here for a full size single decker bus is all the way to Dolgellau some 13 miles. At the inquiry the Ministry said the service could use the toll bridge at Penmaenpool a shorter detour but still a detour, the killer moment was when the Coast Line Action Groups QC asked the Crossville representative what the weight limit on that bridge was and how heavy where there buses..Someone in London had looked at a map without any local knowledge.

The basic geography is the same today.

The Coast Line is fascinating case of a line which managed to avoid closure.

Many were surprised that it never featured in the Beeching Report. I believe that at the time there was a suggestion of closing Pwllheli to Afon Wen and retaining Bangor to Afon Wen and through to the Cambrian or closing the Cambrian north of Barmouth and runnimng through trains from Pwllheli to Bangor and the North Wales Coast. bangor - Afon wen actually had quite healthy passenger numbers.

Whatever the case the Cambrian never appearedd in the Beeching Report and when it was proposed for closure in Jan 71 it was probably as a result of a new cost/benefit analysis devised by the MoT for which the Cambrian was the pilot scheme. Although the cost/ben analysis was generally NOT favourable to the line the TUCC hearing recommended retention. However, the MoT decided ANOTHER hearing should take place.....I think this is perhaps the only case of 2 TUCC hearings taking place for the same closure proposal. I am open to correction but I'm sure it's the only example in Wales.

After the closures in Wales during the 60s closure of the Cambrian was always going to be controversial....this was no minor barnch but 54 miles of line and as Gareth Marston says the it crosses a number of estuaries not crossed by road. Crossville (the company asked to look at an alternative bus) admitted that the journey from Mach to Pwll would take 4h 12m, more in summer or bad weather, as opposed to 2h 30m by train.

Final reprieve was not given until 1974 so for 3 years the Cambrian led a sort of half life of rundown stations but bumper passenger numbers, certainly in summer months when there were many instances of people refused to enter trains because they were so full.

 

[Oswyntail]

...as Gareth Marston says the it crosses a number of estuaries not crossed by road. .....

And a number of marginal Labour constituencies Might explain something!

 

[swcovas]

And a number of marginal Labour constituencies Might explain something!

Actually that was the Central Wales Line. The Cambrian only passed through 2 constituencies though both were under threat of being taken by Plaid at the time of the closure proposal so I'm sure there must have been some "political" thinking. Both were in fact won by Plaid soon after.

 

[Oswyntail]

Actually that was the Central Wales Line. The Cambrian only passed through 2 constituencies though both were under threat of being taken by Plaid at the time of the closure proposal so I'm sure there must have been some "political" thinking. Both were in fact won by Plaid soon after.

Sorry - I always get those two confused. Point still stands!

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Coast Line is fascinating case of a line which managed to avoid closure.

Many were surprised that it never featured in the Beeching Report. I believe that at the time there was a suggestion of closing Pwllheli to Afon Wen and retaining Bangor to Afon Wen and through to the Cambrian or closing the Cambrian north of Barmouth and runnimng through trains from Pwllheli to Bangor and the North Wales Coast. bangor - Afon wen actually had quite healthy passenger numbers.

Whatever the case the Cambrian never appearedd in the Beeching Report and when it was proposed for closure in Jan 71 it was probably as a result of a new cost/benefit analysis devised by the MoT for which the Cambrian was the pilot scheme. Although the cost/ben analysis was generally NOT favourable to the line the TUCC hearing recommended retention. However, the MoT decided ANOTHER hearing should take place.....I think this is perhaps the only case of 2 TUCC hearings taking place for the same closure proposal. I am open to correction but I'm sure it's the only example in Wales.

After the closures in Wales during the 60s closure of the Cambrian was always going to be controversial....this was no minor barnch but 54 miles of line and as Gareth Marston says the it crosses a number of estuaries not crossed by road. Crossville (the company asked to look at an alternative bus) admitted that the journey from Mach to Pwll would take 4h 12m, more in summer or bad weather, as opposed to 2h 30m by train.

Final reprieve was not given until 1974 so for 3 years the Cambrian led a sort of half life of rundown stations but bumper passenger numbers, certainly in summer months when there were many instances of people refused to enter trains because they were so full.

Surprisingly the basic geography of the coast did not change between the two hearings - a lesson still relevant today. When Barmouth Bridge was found to be infested with marine worms in 1980 the official BR estimate for repairs was in the too expensive better to close range. Some BR Engineers came up with a much cheaper solution/ method that was used this caused much consternation in Marylebone Road apparently. One of the engineers was the nephew of Barnes "bouncing bomb" Wallis.

 

[tbtc]

Wakefield has two stations which are now connected by a bus than runs via both of them and the city centre

Manchester has the tram that connects passgeners between Picc & Vic

Manchester is much bigger than Sheffield - bigger cities often have more than one station.

Ideally Wakefield would have one station where the two lines cross. Sheffield services would be a mess if you had some services to Penistone/ Manchester etc leaving from one station and some from another station.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Sheffield is a bigger city than Manchester (552,000 vs 503,000).

 

[MP33]

My father had a timetable when he commuted to London briefly, issued around 1974. On the page with the timetable for the Romford-Upminster shuttle. There was a foot note advising that the service may be withdrawn before the end of the currency of the timetable.

 

[tbtc]

Sheffield is a bigger city than Manchester (552,000 vs 503,000).

...because Sheffield's boundaries extend beyond the immediate urban area (to Stocksbridge and into the Peak District) whilst Manchester's boundaries won't even include places like Salford.

Using the same kind of stats, you can "prove" that Wakefield is bigger than Nottingham (again, because one has wide administrative boundaries and the other has very narrow boundaries).

 

[LE Greys]

...because Sheffield's boundaries extend beyond the immediate urban area (to Stocksbridge and into the Peak District) whilst Manchester's boundaries won't even include places like Salford.

Using the same kind of stats, you can "prove" that Wakefield is bigger than Nottingham (again, because one has wide administrative boundaries and the other has very narrow boundaries).

Quite right, boundary distinctions can be a major headache (especially if a spot of Gerrymandering has occurred). One possible description of an area 'served' by a station would be 'the area within half a mile by any form of public transport'. It's a bit arbitary, especially if two stations overlap, but it will do. I have no idea what the official measure is.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Ideally Wakefield would have one station where the two lines cross. Sheffield services would be a mess if you had some services to Penistone/ Manchester etc leaving from one station and some from another station.

To be fair Sheffield Victoria was their first 1851, where Midland was much later 1870.

One of the other reasons Sheffield Victoria closed was the opening of Nunnery Junction in 1965 and the movent of services from Victoria to Midland, I keep hearing that the North section of Sheffield Midland is a bottleneck now.

If Victoria was still open you would have trains to Manchester , Lincoln , Cleethorpes Via Brigg, Birmingham & The South West , Doncaster / York / Newcastle.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Manchester is much bigger than Sheffield - bigger cities often have more than one station.

But then Wakefield, Gainsborough, Lelant and St. Budeaux have 2, and Pontefract has 3. The number of stations in a locality/town/city are often down to historical accidents rather than neccesity.

Ideally Wakefield would have one station where the two lines cross. Sheffield services would be a mess if you had some services to Penistone/ Manchester etc leaving from one station and some from another station.

That wouldn't really work, as the point where the lines cross is (a) a long way from the city centre and with pretty poor road access, and (b) at a point where both lines are on viaducts or embankments- The Westgate line being pretty high and on a viaduct that snakes over the southern part of the city- Platforms there would be both expensive and would not meet current standards, besides being even more cramped than the present Westgate platforms. Besides, in addition to the FreeCityBus that runs every 10-15mins there's also 1tph between the two stations anyway which will increase to 2tph if/when Westgate is rebuilt with a bay for the Huddersfield/Knottingley services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Besides, in addition to the FreeCityBus that runs every 10-15mins there's also 1tph between the two stations anyway which will increase to 2tph if/when Westgate is rebuilt with a bay for the Huddersfield/Knottingley services.

The advent of free buses that link railway stations to useful and important parts of their environs is one to be welcomed by rail travellers in those places fortunate to have this facility.

 

[ivanhoe]

Sheffield is a bigger city than Manchester (552,000 vs 503,000).

It's the hinterland which is the important factor. There's not much green between Manchester and Bury( Excepting Heaton Park) nor between Manchester and Stockport. Go west and Greater Manchester meets Warrington, I think you get the drift! The North West is an extremely densely populated area. I agree that Sheffield is a bigger city but the area is nowhere as densely populated as Greater Manchester.

 

[tbtc]

If Victoria was still open you would have trains to Manchester , Lincoln , Cleethorpes Via Brigg, Birmingham & The South West , Doncaster / York / Newcastle.

..in which case you'd have some Manchester/ Doncaster/ Birmingham/ York services at Victoria and some Manchester/ Doncaster/ Birmingham/ York services at Midland - which would be nice and confusing.

But then Wakefield, Gainsborough, Lelant and St. Budeaux have 2, and Pontefract has 3. The number of stations in a locality/town/city are often down to historical accidents rather than neccesity

True (given how random and badly co-ordinating the railways were built), but its not something that we should really be trying to have more of (given how confusing it can be).

 

[LE Greys]

True (given how random and badly co-ordinating the railways were built), but its not something that we should really be trying to have more of (given how confusing it can be).

Birmingham seems to be planning for it. :roll:

 

[61653 HTAFC]

..in which case you'd have some Manchester/ Doncaster/ Birmingham/ York services at Victoria and some Manchester/ Doncaster/ Birmingham/ York services at Midland - which would be nice and confusing.

Birmingham has services to London from all 3 of it's stations. Manchester has the same for Liverpool and for Leeds. That's not to mention the many places that are served from multiple London terminii.

True (given how random and badly co-ordinating the railways were built), but its not something that we should really be trying to have more of (given how confusing it can be).

I know what you mean, but if ever Sheffield Victoria was to reopen, I can't imagine it would be long before the tramway was extended to serve it- in the meantime Sheffield is one of those lucky places (along with Huddersfield and Wakefield... Manchester has THREE!) to have a free bus that links the main railway station(s) with various central amenities so presumably it would be diverted to a re-opened Victoria.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Birmingham seems to be planning for it. :roll:

True, the fact that it's taken so long for the Midland Metro to be extended to New Street is nothing short of an embarrassment to the city! :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I know what you mean, but if ever Sheffield Victoria was to reopen, I can't imagine it would be long before the tramway was extended to serve it- in the meantime Sheffield is one of those lucky places (along with Huddersfield and Wakefield... Manchester has THREE!) to have a free bus that links the main railway station(s) with various central amenities so presumably it would be diverted to a re-opened Victoria.

In Greater Manchester, both Bolton and Stockport also have these free bus services that connects the railway station to different parts of their town centres.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In Greater Manchester, both Bolton and Stockport also have these free bus services that connects the railway station to different parts of their town centres.

Apologies for venturing into 'Other Public Transport' territory, but...

They were introduced in most West Yorkshire centres over the last few years. Leeds was the first in early 2006 (operated by First) followed by Huddersfield (K-Line/Centrebus Holdings) in autumn of that year. Wakefield followed in April 2007 (Star Travel, but has been operated by Arriva from 2012 onwards). After delays, The Bradford FreeCityBus (First) began in September 2008. Dewsbury was the last to start, beginning in late 2009 (Star Travel).
Surprisingly, the one service that is no longer operating for free is the Leeds service which was rebranded as 'LeedsCityBus' and had a flat 50p fare introduced in April 2011 by Metro.

Unlike the Manchester 3, the Bradford and Wakefield buses link both of the cities' stations, though there's no tram to compete with of course! Thanks to the geography of Wakefield, the service is ideal for linking the stations in either direction if you're unlucky enough to not connect well with the Huddersfield service between the two. Bradford however is only ideal for Interchange to Forster Square transfers- in the other direction it's quicker to walk!

 

[tbtc]

Birmingham has services to London from all 3 of it's stations. Manchester has the same for Liverpool and for Leeds. That's not to mention the many places that are served from multiple London terminii

As I've said, we are lumbered with some existing situations due to bad planning/ poor co-ordination - that doesn't mean we should have more.

I've argued in the past that situations like the two Blackpool North services leaving from different stations in Manchester just confuse people.

However saying that Birmingham has London services from all three of its stations ignores the fact that anything serving Snow Hill also stops at Moor Street.

I know what you mean, but if ever Sheffield Victoria was to reopen, I can't imagine it would be long before the tramway was extended to serve it- in the meantime Sheffield is one of those lucky places (along with Huddersfield and Wakefield... Manchester has THREE!) to have a free bus that links the main railway station(s) with various central amenities so presumably it would be diverted to a re-opened Victoria

It would be a lot of effort to go to to serve a much quieter station (Victoria is never going to be half as busy as Midland)- if we haven't had any tram extensions in the twenty years that Supertram has been open then I'd be surprised to see one for Victoria.

Maybe Woodhead would have future as a dedicated freight route - I just think that it'll cause a lot of mess for passenger services.

 

[Buttsy]

But then Wakefield, Gainsborough, Lelant and St. Budeaux have 2, and Pontefract has 3. The number of stations in a locality/town/city are often down to historical accidents rather than neccesity.

Lelant has 2 because a park & ride station (Saltings) was built in 1978 to ease congestion in St Ives. St Budeaux could concievably be shown as one station as the station entrances are across the road from each other (P1 for Cornwall, P2 for limited service to Plymouth, P3 for regular Plymouth services and Gunnislake). Tanshelf was opened in Pontefract when the Wakefield line was opened and Baghill has a very limited service. I would suggest that Lelant Saltings and Pontefract Tanshelf were opened (or re-opened) through need rather than historical accident.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I know what you mean, but if ever Sheffield Victoria was to reopen, I can't imagine it would be long before the tramway was extended to serve it- in the meantime Sheffield is one of those lucky places (along with Huddersfield and Wakefield... Manchester has THREE!) to have a free bus that links the main railway station(s) with various central amenities so presumably it would be diverted to a re-opened Victoria.

As we all know HS2 is now not going to Sheffield Victoria, however on the plans the tram was to be diverted to go to Victoria.

Rotherham also has a Freebus that takes passgeners from the Bus Station to Rotherham Central then onto the town and the Parkgate shopping centre, I wonder what Beeching would have made of these free buses

Maybe Woodhead would have future as a dedicated freight route - I just think that it'll cause a lot of mess for passenger services.

What about the plans of the Don Valley Railway of starting a service from Sheffield Victoria to Deepcar/Stocksbridge ?

 

[tbtc]

What about the plans of the Don Valley Railway of starting a service from Sheffield Victoria to Deepcar/Stocksbridge ?

Any station at Deepcar/ Stocksbridge would presumably be at the bottom of the valley, a long way from where people actually live (on the hillside), so would involve a connecting bus service.

As there's already a Tram Feeder service to Middlewood Supertram stop every ten minutes, this sounds like a lot of expense for little benefit.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Any station at Deepcar/ Stocksbridge would presumably be at the bottom of the valley, a long way from where people actually live (on the hillside).

Sounds like a reverse role scenario that is currently found at Chapel-en-le-Frith railway station.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

As there's already a Tram Feeder service to Middlewood Supertram stop every ten minutes, this sounds like a lot of expense for little benefit.

I caught this on Saturday to Stocksbridge ( SL2 Service ), and it was packed

You may not know but the section from Middlewood to Deepcar/Stocksbridge was run for many years by First Bus, it has been a refreshing change for the locals in the S35 area to have new buses that run to time and are clean, and you dont need a loan to buy a ticket

 

[tbtc]

I caught this on Saturday to Stocksbridge ( SL2 Service ), and it was packed

You may not know but the section from Middlewood to Deepcar/Stocksbridge was run for many years by First Bus, it has been a refreshing change for the locals in the S35 area to have new buses that run to time and are clean, and you dont need a loan to buy a ticket

SL2 is the Malin Bridge - Stannington service, but I know what you mean - the Stocksbridge service has been upgraded from minibuses to E200s due to increased numbers as it's every ten minutes and serves most of Stocksbridge/ Deepcar (not all, but it's a tricky area to serve by bus without a lot of doubling back).

I've used the Stagecoach 57 a couple of times since they took over from First on the daytime runs (previously Stagecoach ran evenings/ Sundays only on the Sheffield service, supplemented with the tram feeder service during the daytimes as far as Middlewood, but now run both routes all day) - its suffered a little due to the interworking with the 265 (Sheffield - Barnsley), but that should be ceasing when the 265 sees a frequency upgrade.

Compared to the grotty ex-London Olympians that First ran for most of the past few years to Stocksbridge, the ALX300s etc that Stagecoach run are much more attractive

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Compared to the grotty ex-London Olympians that First ran for most of the past few years to Stocksbridge, the ALX300s etc that Stagecoach run are much more attractive

Thats First South Yorkshire for you, dumping ground for all rubbish buses.

Back onto Beeching, in the 1960's Sheffield City Transport as it was known then had a number of buses that were contacted to British Rail, do we know if it was his idea to sell this off along with the hotels that BR ran ?

 

[341o2]

Lelant has 2 because a park & ride station St Budeaux could concievably be shown as one station .

St Budeaux has 2 stations because the section to Bere Alston was oiriginally part of the SR main line between Exeter, Okehampton & Plymouth. Eastwards the line tunnelled under the WR, the city college occupies the site of Devonport Kings Rd station. SR trains then ran over the WR line travelling eastbound, through what was once known as North Road, now simply Plymouth to their own terminus at Friary

The line survived Beeching, but the Bere Alston - Meldon section was closed in 1968

 

[Buttsy]

St Budeaux has 2 stations because the section to Bere Alston was oiriginally part of the SR main line between Exeter, Okehampton & Plymouth. Eastwards the line tunnelled under the WR, the university occupies the site of Devonport Kings Rd station. SR trains then ran over the WR line travelling eastbound, through what was once known as North Road, now simply Plymouth to their own terminus at Friary

The line survived Beeching, but the Bere Alston - Meldon section was closed in 1968

Thank you for that. I was attempting (albeit poorly) to suggest that nowadays the 2 St. Budeaux stations could become one as the entrances to the stations are opposite each other and could be shown as one and therefore make it more obvious for interchange rather than going to Keyham or Plymouth.