Halton Curve upgrade is on

[The Planner]

4 minutes pathing time in it on the way to Euston, there is a LM in front of it, so it used that up.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I'm pleased to see this project going ahead. One summer morning in 1966 I set off on my bicycle from Halewood Village to Ditton Junction hoping to board the morning Lime Street - Bangor Saturdays-only train hauled by a Speke Junction BR Standard Five (73xxx) only to come a cropper on the way and miss the train. Now of course Ditton Junction has gone as has Speke Junction shed, plus the Standard Five and the Halton Curve. At least now one of those is coming back!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I pointed out on the Northern/TPE ITT thread, the Halton Curve is not mentioned there.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112640&page=14, post #199
It does not yet appear to have made the cut to a committed service (unless it is intended to appear in the Wales & Borders ITT in 2017).

The ICWC rebid is in 2016, so we shall see if anybody is interested in combining Chester/Liverpool services. Personally I doubt it.
There has been the intention to boost Liverpool electric service frequency for some time (it got 11-car Pendolinos instead).
What's more, the existing Liverpool services are not overloaded - that's why they mostly now call also at Crewe.

 

[Hophead]

London-Chester is 2 hours 4 mins, add in a 7 minute reversal stop at Chester and 43 minutes to Liverpool it would be 2 hours 54 minutes, 18 minutes longer than current London to Liverpool trains. Nearly 10 mins could be cut by going non stop from London to Crewe and perhaps another 5 mins by by not stopping at Helsby and Frodsham. Add in direct Liverpool-London services stopping at Milton Keynes to componsate and they could be balanced timewise at 4-5 mins longer than the current service.

Euston - Lime Street is about 2:15, so your new service is actually slower by 40 minutes or so.

 

[frodshamfella]

I have raised this before on other threads, that the as yet "untapped" source of passengers from Helsby and Frodsham areas will quickly prove this route a success on their own. Not to mention the fact that the Mersey road bridges will soon be Toll Roads, so the market is there for rail to take. I think car parking will be a big issue at these stations before too long and an "integrated transport" approach would be working on increasing capacity now.
My original point is that once NR make these statements with dates like 2016 for a set price, then they should be made to keep to them, even if it means only the minimum work to open on time not linked, to some big scheme that may well slip back years.
The work at Lime Street and Edge Hill still leaves a lot of railway missing from Weaver-Wavertree.

I would certainly use a service into Liverpool via Halton curve from Frodsham. I use Acton Bridge for Liverpool at the moment, which does not have a frequent service calling. Id find the new route via Halton curve very handy to reach Liverpool Airport too.

 

[ivanhoe]

As I pointed out on the Northern/TPE ITT thread, the Halton Curve is not mentioned there.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112640&page=14, post #199
It does not yet appear to have made the cut to a committed service (unless it is intended to appear in the Wales & Borders ITT in 2017).

The ICWC rebid is in 2016, so we shall see if anybody is interested in combining Chester/Liverpool services. Personally I doubt it.
There has been the intention to boost Liverpool electric service frequency for some time (it got 11-car Pendolinos instead).
What's more, the existing Liverpool services are not overloaded - that's why they mostly now call also at Crewe.

Its not just the Liverpool trains that are not overloaded.three Manchester services per hour carries a lot of fresh air. Later Euston Departures to Liverpool would be nice as it would be for Trent Valley as well.

 

[frodshamfella]

Its not just the Liverpool trains that are not overloaded.three Manchester services per hour carries a lot of fresh air. Later Euston Departures to Liverpool would be nice as it would be for Trent Valley as well.

I have only ever used Manchester to Euston once, was rather surprised it was 3 per hour (is that all day, i dont know ??), seemed a bit OTT anyway and that probably explained why the train was very light on passengers.

 

[Camden]

I have only ever used Manchester to Euston once, was rather surprised it was 3 per hour (is that all day, i dont know ??), seemed a bit OTT anyway and that probably explained why the train was very light on passengers.

Yes it is, a 20 minute frequency known as VHF. As a user I'd disagree with LNW about Liverpool services not being quite loaded and my understanding of the Crewe call is that this isn't demand related. As have meetings on different days in different cities with often not much notice a key sign is advance tickets. Manchester rarely any problem on still available cheap as chips tickets where as Liverpool I often find no chance. Given the inherent cost saving in running only one train an hour I'd imagine a keenness from some to keep it that way though. Leeds can be pricey but that's a different operator so comparison doesn't really work. A second Liverpool to London service but via Chester is interesting actually as I wonder how many in Liverpool go that way anyway (from the Wirral for example) where there is only one train an hour from Liverpool it is quite likely, even if it is 40 mins longer journey. Looked at that way you could be increasing demand quite a bit by tapping into need for a second train from Liverpool Lime Street and still serving those passengers who might find it easier to get to Chester. Also would provide a high quality service on the Halton Line.

For the Halton Line services, as ATW operates the services into Manchester Picc I'd be surprised if they didn't also operate any service from Wales into Lime Street.

 

[frodshamfella]

Yes it is, a 20 minute frequency known as VHF. As a user I'd disagree with LNW about Liverpool services not being quite loaded and my understanding of the Crewe call is that this isn't demand related. As have meetings on different days in different cities with often not much notice a key sign is advance tickets. Manchester rarely any problem on still available cheap as chips tickets where as Liverpool I often find no chance. Given the inherent cost saving in running only one train an hour I'd imagine a keenness from some to keep it that way though. Leeds can be pricey but that's a different operator so comparison doesn't really work. A second Liverpool to London service but via Chester is interesting actually as I wonder how many in Liverpool go that way anyway (from the Wirral for example) where there is only one train an hour from Liverpool it is quite likely, even if it is 40 mins longer journey. Looked at that way you could be increasing demand quite a bit by tapping into need for a second train from Liverpool Lime Street and still serving those passengers who might find it easier to get to Chester. Also would provide a high quality service on the Halton Line.

For the Halton Line services, as ATW operates the services into Manchester Picc I'd be surprised if they didn't also operate any service from Wales into Lime Street.

Yes I would be surprised if ATW didn't launch a service in to Lime Street via Halton Curve.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Yes I would be surprised if ATW didn't launch a service in to Lime Street via Halton Curve.

It would not surprise me if Merseyrail got involved in some form or another. They are certainly interested in the Curve reopening as they were prepared to fund a report into the viability of it reopening, prior to the announcement by George Osborne that finance was to be made available.

 

[pablo]

......
A second Liverpool to London service but via Chester is interesting actually as I wonder how many in Liverpool go that way anyway (from the Wirral for example) where there is only one train an hour from Liverpool it is quite likely, even if it is 40 mins longer journey. Looked at that way you could be increasing demand quite a bit by tapping into need for a second train from Liverpool Lime Street and still serving those passengers who might find it easier to get to Chester. Also would provide a high quality service on the Halton Line.
.........

That would be interesting. If LPL-CHR is 43 minutes, then you would have ex-LS, xx:47 VT direct Euston; xx:04 LM change at Crewe and xx:20 VT via Chester. Gives 3tph of sorts. Almost as good as Manch! The extra VT would displace an ATW shuttle though. What a good move!
Methinks any end-to end pax would wait for the next direct, but a VT could do a good pick-up job as a stopper to Chester. Catchment on the Wirral is likely to be the very top end only since Merseyrail does the pick-up job down the Chester/EP line more effectively. Whether CHR needs 2tph to Euston is another question. Nice to have. VT is not really in this line of business though.

If you don't go to 2tph though but simply reverse the existing CHR terminator to Liverpool, it will clash with the xx:47 direct. Where is The Planner?

 

[Camden]

It would not surprise me if Merseyrail got involved in some form or another. They are certainly interested in the Curve reopening as they were prepared to fund a report into the viability of it reopening, prior to the announcement by George Osborne that finance was to be made available.

Yes it's a merseytravel project, they've fought long and hard for this and stumped up the cash for the report to get it going asap. I gather it was difficult for them to get the case for it accepted by the government because supposedly the "benefits" of it (as in how it is justified on paper) officially fall largely outside merseyside and into Wales. A daft situation when the scheme is a "no brainer" but credit to them they have persisted and (hopefully) won.

 

[frodshamfella]

It would not surprise me if Merseyrail got involved in some form or another. They are certainly interested in the Curve reopening as they were prepared to fund a report into the viability of it reopening, prior to the announcement by George Osborne that finance was to be made available.

Wow...what a dream to have a frequent Merseyrail service running via Halton Curve, and giving my local station ( Frodsham) a decent service. As you say they funded the study, so they must have some thoughts behind doing that.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes it's a merseytravel project, they've fought long and hard for this and stumped up the cash for the report to get it going asap. I gather it was difficult for them to get the case for it accepted by the government because supposedly the "benefits" of it (as in how it is justified on paper) officially fall largely outside merseyside and into Wales. A daft situation when the scheme is a "no brainer" but credit to them they have persisted and (hopefully) won.

'government' in this case was Merseyside leaders, Merseytravel had difficulty getting them to finance a study outside their area. They eventually agreed to it if they could claw the £500k cost back from the other stakeholders (WAG, consortium of 6 Welsh local councils, Halton Council)

http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/abou...to-open-up-the-region-move-a-step-closer.aspx

Network Rail have been pushing it for a while, was in the Welsh RUS.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It would not surprise me if Merseyrail got involved in some form or another. They are certainly interested in the Curve reopening as they were prepared to fund a report into the viability of it reopening, prior to the announcement by George Osborne that finance was to be made available.

Surely Merseytravel (the PTE/ITA) funded the study, rather than Merseyrail (the TOC)? There's an awful lot of confusion between the two on here...

 

[Gareth]

As a user I'd disagree with LNW about Liverpool services not being quite loaded and my understanding of the Crewe call is that this isn't demand related. As have meetings on different days in different cities with often not much notice a key sign is advance tickets. Manchester rarely any problem on still available cheap as chips tickets where as Liverpool I often find no chance.

If I recall correctly, the official reason for the Crewe stop was a pathing issue; not that that stopped the propaganda about how poor, small, unimportant Liverpool couldn't sustain even 1tph being repeated over and over again until most people believed it. And yes, Manchester tends to have a lot more cheap tickets. Most of Liverpool's cheap tickets to London are via London Midland (with a change of train), which, of course, removes demand on the direct London LDHS service, in contrast to Manchester which has no similar alternative. This is covered in the 20MM report.

 

[Camden]

If I recall correctly, the official reason for the Crewe stop was a pathing issue; not that that stopped the propaganda about how poor, small, unimportant Liverpool couldn't sustain even 1tph being repeated over and over again until most people believed it. And yes, Manchester tends to have a lot more cheap tickets. Most of Liverpool's cheap tickets to London are via London Midland (with a change of train), which, of course, removes demand on the direct London LDHS service, in contrast to Manchester which has no similar alternative. This is covered in the 20MM report.

London to Manchester cheap tickets are forever being advertised (thousands of cheap seats will available etc). Rarely if ever do I recall seeing an advert for anywhere else, no doubt it is because they have to try and shift the tickets but it does also give a bit of promotion for the place itself. I think if I wanted to get hold of one for London to Liverpool these days I'd have to visit Leicester Square and try my luck

I didn't know that about London Midland, next time it's me paying I'll have a look. If it's for work then they can just pony up for a direct!

Have you got a link to the report?

 

[pablo]

http://www.20milesmore.com/

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If I recall correctly, the official reason for the Crewe stop was a pathing issue; not that that stopped the propaganda about how poor, small, unimportant Liverpool couldn't sustain even 1tph being repeated over and over again until most people believed it. And yes, Manchester tends to have a lot more cheap tickets. Most of Liverpool's cheap tickets to London are via London Midland (with a change of train), which, of course, removes demand on the direct London LDHS service, in contrast to Manchester which has no similar alternative. This is covered in the 20MM report.

If you think Liverpool has few cheap advances, Chester has even fewer (and no cheap LM option).
There isn't the capacity in a 5-car Voyager, so the fare structure is mainly walk-on.
Chester (and Wrexham/Wirral) take the same draconian off-peak time restrictions as Manchester/Liverpool etc.
Through services from the North Wales coast have easier restrictions (but fewer trains).

Anyway, there are no spare Voyagers.
If there were, you'll probably find that North Wales would be first in the queue for more extensions beyond Chester.
Or Shrewsbury. Or Blackpool...

Liverpool was due to get more off-peak Pendolinos, alternating with Preston, when the Norton Bridge works were done.
This was to speed up Glasgows by taking "Lancs" stops out.
But the DfT did not let VT buy any new stock in the current short franchise.

 

[Camden]

If you think Liverpool has few cheap advances, Chester has even fewer (and no cheap LM option).
There isn't the capacity in a 5-car Voyager, so the fare structure is mainly walk-on.
Chester (and Wrexham/Wirral) take the same draconian off-peak time restrictions as Manchester/Liverpool etc.
Through services from the North Wales coast have easier restrictions (but fewer trains).

Anyway, there are no spare Voyagers.
If there were, you'll probably find that North Wales would be first in the queue for more extensions beyond Chester.
Or Shrewsbury. Or Blackpool...

I did try travelling via Chester once when in Birkenhead, it was a 10 carriage so maybe things have moved on already.

Liverpool was due to get more off-peak Pendolinos, alternating with Preston, when the Norton Bridge works were done.
This was to speed up Glasgows by taking "Lancs" stops out.

Sounds sensible.

But the DfT did not let VT buy any new stock in the current short franchise.

And the opposite of my previous comment!

 

[Railman]

I like the idea of the alternative routing for Liv-Euston trains combining with Chester-Eus and although not the fastest possibly a "budget" route and the possibility of increased unit utilisation. But my point is what is the date for the work to be done? I know there is no proposed service yet plus all the problems of no trains BUT if there is no route why put it in any franchise?
A lot of people are claiming this re-opening as a victory (local MPs etc) But will the 2016 deadline be met? The welsh Gov have put money in, when will the actual work take place.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I did try travelling via Chester once when in Birkenhead, it was a 10 carriage so maybe things have moved on already.

I think there are three 10-car Voyager services east of Chester.
One is the 0735 (Wrexham portion added), one is the 0910 Euston-Holyhead and 1408 back (the only 10-car working on the coast), and the third doubles up at Chester in the afternoon to form a peak train to/from Euston.
All the others are single units, and on some workings 2 of the 5 cars are First Class.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Halton Curve business case from Merseytravel. Released May 12th by the looks of things.

http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/about-us/local-transport-delivery/Documents/Halton%20Curve%20OBC%20-%20Final%20Version%20May%202015%20-%20Redacted%20-%20For%20posting.pdf

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Halton Curve business case from Merseytravel. Released May 12th by the looks of things.
http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/about-us/local-transport-delivery/Documents/Halton%20Curve%20OBC%20-%20Final%20Version%20May%202015%20-%20Redacted%20-%20For%20posting.pdf

So, a reversible single line with single-lead connections at both ends. Scope for a later loop on the curve.
1tph Liverpool Lime St-Chester calling at L S Parkway, Runcorn, Frodsham and Helsby, journey time 47 minutes, BCR 1.8.
Desired extensions to Wrexham and/or Bangor are possible but the extra service subsidy will be down to the Welsh Government/Rail North and the new W&B/NT franchises.
Capacity of the curve will be potentially 2tph (but Network Rail has not confirmed this).
Capacity Chester-Wrexham is problematic with NR offering only 1.5tph after the current redoubling is completed.
All costs/timescales redacted.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

So, a reversible single line with single-lead connections at both ends. Scope for a later loop on the curve.
1tph Liverpool Lime St-Chester calling at L S Parkway, Runcorn, Frodsham and Helsby, journey time 47 minutes, BCR 1.8.
Desired extensions to Wrexham and/or Bangor are possible but the extra service subsidy will be down to the Welsh Government/Rail North and the new W&B/NT franchises.
Capacity of the curve will be potentially 2tph (but Network Rail has not confirmed this).
Capacity Chester-Wrexham is problematic with NR offering only 1.5tph after the current redoubling is completed.
All costs/timescales redacted.

Pretty much sums things up. The project moves forwards with a minimal service recommended and with alternatives for the future dependant on passenger revenue and/or subsidies. Merseytravel to subsidise the route for the first 3 years.

 

[WatcherZero]

Skimming it, reason for low BCRs seems to be going via airport is not competitive with existing liverpool chester service, a large amount of abstraction from ATW and West Coast and low demand for the airport (which they try to fudge by adding 30% to existing airport demand to estimate new journey demand). Moderate time savings and decongestion benefits but a low population area being served doesnt help, environmental benefits also practically non existent with noise being worse with the rail link than with road traffic.

Rolling stock for the various options modelled is between 2 and 7 class 150's with 4 being the average. Best performing options economically and financially use 3 and 2 with the reccomended option the second best economically advantageous and best commercial case a single hourly chester liverpool which requires two units.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Skimming it, reason for low BCRs seems to be going via airport is not competitive with existing liverpool chester service, a large amount of abstraction from ATW and West Coast and low demand for the airport (which they try to fudge by adding 30% to existing airport demand to estimate new journey demand). Moderate time savings and decongestion benefits but a low population area being served doesnt help, environmental benefits also practically non existent with noise being worse with the rail link than with road traffic.

Rolling stock for the various options modelled is between 2 and 7 class 150's with 4 being the average. Best performing options economically and financially use 3 and 2 with the reccomended option the second best economically advantageous and best commercial case a single hourly chester liverpool which requires two units.

And (despite my support for purely selfish local reasons) very few freight options.

 

[northwichcat]

MCRUA has sent a letter of support to Frank Rogers, Director of Integrated Transport Services at Merseytravel

Dear Mr Rogers

Halton Curve

The Mid Cheshire Rail Users Association (MCRUA) has over 500 members. The Mid Cheshire Line has seen very strong passenger growth over the last 10 years with an increase of 164% in passenger numbers at the stations between Navigation Road and Mouldsworth, i.e. those served only by the Mid Cheshire Line. We understand this is more than 3 times the national average.

MCRUA strongly supports the Halton Curve rail project and the work being led by Merseytravel on behalf of the Liverpool City Region, along with the Welsh Government and Network Rail. We recognise the importance of the work planned for the development of the infrastructure and welcome the opportunity this brings to link the wider economic areas of the Liverpool City Region, Cheshire and North Wales, as well as other parts of North West England, as part of an incremental approach.

In respect of the two lines we represent, we can see important benefits as follows:

• Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge stations on the Crewe-Liverpool line suffer from a rather patchy timetable of services to/from Liverpool due, we are told to the congestion on the line between Winsford and Weaver Junction not only from passenger trains, but also from freight services. These include freight services originating in the Liverpool, Widnes and Runcorn areas. If some of these freight services travelled south from Liverpool/Widnes/Runcorn using the Halton Curve releasing freight paths on the West Coast Main Line, Winsford and Hartford could well have a half-hourly service throughout the day, and Acton Bridge an hourly service.
• the release of freight paths over this section might also provide the opportunity for the long-demanded local service from Crewe to Preston via Winsford, Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western. Currently, users at these Cheshire stations have to join a train heading south in order to travel north, finding themselves eventually travelling north through their original departure station up to an hour later. Unsurprisingly, many drive to Crewe, Warrington or Wigan instead, or indeed drive all the way.
• train services on the Mid Cheshire Line (Chester-Northwich-Knutsford-Manchester) are provided by Northern Rail using units based at Newton Heath Depot in North Manchester and class 156 units from Allerton Depot. If Northern could move class 156 units more easily to Chester from/to Allerton using the Halton Curve, they could reduce the distances travelled by empty stock transfers early in the morning and late at night. It would also help reduce congestion at Newton Heath Depot and in the carriage sidings at Longsight Depot.
• potential passengers on the western half of the Mid Cheshire Line for Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool John Lennon Airport are faced with a rather difficult journey, having to travel via Chester, then on Merseyrail to central Liverpool and then out to Liverpool South Parkway. We understand a direct service from Chester would more than halve the travel time to Liverpool South Parkway for these passengers. This would make the use of Liverpool John Lennon Airport far more attractive. Currently potential users face a long rail journey or the use of a car, risking the traffic jams on the Runcorn-Widnes Bridge and suffering the car parking charges. This compares unfavourably to gaining access to Manchester Airport which is via a train to Altrincham and the half-hourly 20 minute bus ride from there to the airport.

If you wish to discuss these comments further or any related matters please feel free to be in touch.

Yours sincerely.



John Oates

Chairman

 

[8A Rail]

MCRUA has sent a letter of support to Frank Rogers, Director of Integrated Transport Services at Merseytravel

Release of freight paths John Oates (MCRA) wants!! Have they no idea where all the freights originate to and from - something to do with the South of England (mainly mid / south east). Not sure if FOC's will be happy to divert via Chester (reverse) to Crewe or go via Wrexham and even allowing for the doubling of the track between Saltney Junction and Rossett, there is still a single line section which limits train capacity - also not forgetting existing passenger service! And also taking longer in time, FOC's wont entertain that option. Talking about not seeing the wider picture!

The reality, with the odd exception of diverted freight due to engineering work, there is not much regular freight that will use the Halton Curve. I'm all for the curve to be fully reopened but not on the basis of MCRU first two points! Not realistic!

As for the Allerton based Class 156's - don't he know they are alll eventually getting transferred away as the depot is/will be home of the electric Class 319's! Coinsequently there wil be no or hardly any DMU movements except those using the CLC route on the passenger service between Lime St and Manchester Oxford Rd.

The only point in the letter that seems to be valid is the final one!

 

[The Planner]

It does seem a bit unresearched doesnt it.