Halton Curve upgrade is on

[Gareth]

Just saw one of those Class 175s upon the viaduct in Wavertree heading towards Lime Street.

Quite novel, considering it was in Arriva livery, which is very much associated with buses in these parts.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

Interesting does anyone know what stock will be used on the commencement of passenger services on 20th May will it be 175s, 150s or even 158s (although not sure if they have appeared on any of the training runs) but I have heard they have been cleared for the route and will these services eventually go over to the new CAF TFW stock once the services are extended into Wales?

Luke

 

[PHILIPE]

Interesting does anyone know what stock will be used on the commencement of passenger services on 20th May will it be 175s, 150s or even 158s (although not sure if they have appeared on any of the training runs) but I have heard they have been cleared for the route and will these services eventually go over to the new CAF TFW stock once the services are extended into Wales?

Luke

150s to start

 

[krus_aragon]

And yes, it will eventually be CAF stock on the through services to Llandudno and Shrewsbury/Cardiff.

 

[craigybagel]

CAFs will be used on pretty much everything North of Hereford in the end. Only exception will be 230s on Bidston, 170s on HOWL/Crewe - Shrewsbury locals and 67 + MKIVs on 3 Cardiff Holyhead roundtrips per day. Otherwise, it's CAFs all the way.

 

[fowler9]

CAFs will be used on pretty much everything North of Hereford in the end. Only exception will be 230s on Bidston, 170s on HOWL/Crewe - Shrewsbury locals and 67 + MKIVs on 3 Cardiff Holyhead roundtrips per day. Otherwise, it's CAFs all the way.

67 and Mk 4's! Really?

 

[frodshamfella]

What is the timescale for full onward services into North Wales ?

 

[craigybagel]

67 and Mk 4's! Really?

Yup. Keep an eye on the dedicated TfW threads, since it's a bit off topic for Halton Curve, but all the info is in there.

What is the timescale for full onward services into North Wales ?

IIRC it's about 2023/2024. There's going to be a recast of the entire TfW long distance timetable and they can't do that till enough of the CAFs are in service.

 

[theshillito]

CAFs will be used on pretty much everything North of Hereford in the end. Only exception will be 230s on Bidston, 170s on HOWL/Crewe - Shrewsbury locals and 67 + MKIVs on 3 Cardiff Holyhead roundtrips per day. Otherwise, it's CAFs all the way.

TfW are implying that 230s will be used on the Crewe to Chester shuttle as well as Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog. They'd probably fit in well on Chester to Liverpool too for the time being, but no point introducing new stock to a short-term service.

 

[krus_aragon]

IIRC it's about 2023/2024. There's going to be a recast of the entire TfW long distance timetable and they can't do that till enough of the CAFs are in service.

December 2022 is the date that was given at the start of the new franchise (for all the recast-related services). Any delays in delivery might see that revised to May 2023, though.

 

[krus_aragon]

TfW are implying that 230s will be used on the Crewe to Chester shuttle as well as Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog.

Yes (and possibly elsewhere, such as Crewe-Shrewsbury) but as craigybagel stated, in the end they'll be doing Wrexham-Bidston, with the CAF units just about everywhere else.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TfW are implying that 230s will be used on the Crewe to Chester shuttle as well as Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog. They'd probably fit in well on Chester to Liverpool too for the time being, but no point introducing new stock to a short-term service.

Crewe-Chester 230 is only supposed to be short-term before there are enough CAF units in service.
We'll see...

 

[PHILIPE]

The Halton Curve service will be worked by 150s at the start and superseded in due course by CAFs. As Carigybagel has said the other routes are being discussed in TFW threads elsewhere. Can we stay on the Halton Curve topic, please as it becomes difficult to follow developments elsewhere if they are spread across various threads.

 

[driver_m]

TfW are implying that 230s will be used on the Crewe to Chester shuttle as well as Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog. They'd probably fit in well on Chester to Liverpool too for the time being, but no point introducing new stock to a short-term service.

They definitely won’t. 60mph is not good when you’ve got a pendo behind you. As many have said, 150s, possibly 175s and maybe the odd 158 from the Chester depot unit generator for Halton Curve stuff. Has to be something that can do 75 with the timings that I’ve seen so far.

 

[cle]

The Halton Curve service will be worked by 150s at the start and superseded in due course by CAFs. As Carigybagel has said the other routes are being discussed in TFW threads elsewhere. Can we stay on the Halton Curve topic, please as it becomes difficult to follow developments elsewhere if they are spread across various threads.

Interesting that the only extensions are to Wrexham - I wonder if that'll be very popular and become the precedent for an hourly service, which would be the future Cardiff service.

And North Wales (coast) trains would be a future second path.

Although if running to Cardiff, you wouldn't be calling at Helsby and Frodsham, so I'd expect a second category of service. Those stations do have the Leeds service also - perhaps that could run through to the coast instead. Many options - but exciting times for rail users in the region, and a lot of activity for Chester especially!

 

[krus_aragon]

Interesting that the only extensions are to Wrexham - I wonder if that'll be very popular and become the precedent for an hourly service, which would be the future Cardiff service.

And North Wales (coast) trains would be a future second path.

Although if running to Cardiff, you wouldn't be calling at Helsby and Frodsham, so I'd expect a second category of service. Those stations do have the Leeds service also - perhaps that could run through to the coast instead. Many options - but exciting times for rail users in the region, and a lot of activity for Chester especially!

The extensions to Wrexham are just a "taster", the rest of the service will be introduced when TfW get their new CAF stock delivered.

There's no plan for a second path. Two units will run hourly from Liverpool, coupled together as far as Chester. One will proceed to Llandudno, the other will run to Shrewsbury, or onward to Cardiff in alternating hours.

 

[frodshamfella]

The extensions to Wrexham are just a "taster", the rest of the service will be introduced when TfW get their new CAF stock delivered.

There's no plan for a second path. Two units will run hourly from Liverpool, coupled together as far as Chester. One will proceed to Llandudno, the other will run to Shrewsbury, or onward to Cardiff in alternating hours.

This is a good boost for Liverpool to Wales direct links.....at last !

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is a good boost for Liverpool to Wales direct links.....at last !

For Shrewsbury and beyond it will still be faster indirectly via Crewe.

 

[frodshamfella]

For Shrewsbury and beyond it will still be faster indirectly via Crewe.

But I'm sure many would rather a direct train especially with luggage.

 

[Vinnym]

But I'm sure many would rather a direct train especially with luggage.

Totally agree, who would want to change at Crewe when there is a direct train.

 

[cle]

What would be the time penalty, including a change?

This is why a second category of express train should be looked at, for Cardiff services - and to be competitive on journey times vs Crewe. There is plenty of potential from Liverpool for two trains per hour - Llandudno/Holyhead and Wrexham/Shrewsbury/Cardiff.

Frodsham and Helsby are getting the Calder service too - which I'm not so convinced by - but there is definite upside fo everyone.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It will be like the North Wales-Birmingham service running via Shrewsbury - about 30 minutes slower (depends on timetables) than the direct route.

 

[Eccles1983]

What would be the time penalty, including a change?

This is why a second category of express train should be looked at, for Cardiff services - and to be competitive on journey times vs Crewe. There is plenty of potential from Liverpool for two trains per hour - Llandudno/Holyhead and Wrexham/Shrewsbury/Cardiff.

Frodsham and Helsby are getting the Calder service too - which I'm not so convinced by - but there is definite upside fo everyone.

Frodsham and Helsby only get the Calder valley services during the peak time.

Anything using the curve should stop at both.

 

[childwallblues]

It is a pity that the new service stops only at Liverpool South Parkway and not West Allerton and Mossley Hill.

 

[Gareth]

Nah, the service is pretty slow as it is.

 

[Ianno87]

Nah, the service is pretty slow as it is.

And adding stops makes its pathing much trickier. It stops exactly where it needs to.

 

[Llandudno]

It is a pity that the new service stops only at Liverpool South Parkway and not West Allerton and Mossley Hill.

Fairly straight forward change at Parkway.

Also when the service gets extended to Llandudno and Shrewsbury/Cardiff you can’t really be stopping at all the intermediate stations

 

[notabasher]

The TFW app is showing £26.45 for Liverpool to Shrewsbury off peak return, either central via Hooton or Lime Street via Helsby. Singles are £18.80.

How on earth do you get that fare? Playing around with national rail and TFW I can only get the £40.10 Anytime fare. I can get the £27 fare from Birkenhead Central so how does Birkenhead-Liverpool add £13?

I'm fairly used to fiddling around to get cheaper fares and I can't make sense of this.

£26.45 is what I'd expect to pay for this journey. Splitting tickets and specifying routes is a pain, because the option to travel via Chester or Crewe effectively doubles the service frequency. This is a medium-length journey with a fast-ish frequent service which I will drive because it is too expensive.

 

[notabasher]

Fairly straight forward change at Parkway.

Also when the service gets extended to Llandudno and Shrewsbury/Cardiff you can’t really be stopping at all the intermediate stations

Depends on the timings. If the Oxford Road stopper is late trains towards Runcorn can catch up on the slow lines, leading to a desperate sprint over the footbridge to Platform 3 at LSP.

 

[craigybagel]

It is a pity that the new service stops only at Liverpool South Parkway and not West Allerton and Mossley Hill.

People are already complaining about how slow it is and how it's no quicker then the Merseyrail service via Birkenhead. Adding these stops will not help.

How on earth do you get that fare? Playing around with national rail and TFW I can only get the £40.10 Anytime fare. I can get the £27 fare from Birkenhead Central so how does Birkenhead-Liverpool add £13?

I'm fairly used to fiddling around to get cheaper fares and I can't make sense of this.

£26.45 is what I'd expect to pay for this journey. Splitting tickets and specifying routes is a pain, because the option to travel via Chester or Crewe effectively doubles the service frequency. This is a medium-length journey with a fast-ish frequent service which I will drive because it is too expensive.

The £40.10 fare is actually an Off Peak return - albeit with an 8A restriction meaning there are no time restrictions at all. According to BR fares there are no other fares in existence for Liverpool - Shrewsbury. You do end up with precisely £26.45 if you add a Railcard however.