Hall Farm Curve

[AlanFry1]

Hi all,

I'm aware to the plans of three/four tracking parts of the WAML around Copermill Junction northbound a few miles, but upon passing the Hall Farm Curve (The old curve which was removed well before my time which linked Chingford and Walthamstow to Stratford to those less familiar) seemed to have a hell of a lot of work around it, more than the quadruple tracking seen elsewhere around Tottenham, Lea and Enfield.

I didn't realise that the Hall Farm Curve was to be retracked and made ready for services? I assume this could be for an extension of NLL services from Stratford to Chingford - which will ease a lot of congestion with the NLL platforms at Stratford in line with the planned service frequency upgrade. This would also do heavens to one of, if not the most congested stretch of roads in the London if not the UK.

 

[D365]

I don’t believe there are any plans to extend the NLL. Besides, with a limited number of 378s and 710s, where would the rolling stock be sourced from?

If the two platforms at Stratford are a pinch point, I’d place my money on a third bay being instated.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I'm also unaware of any firm plans to re-install the link from Chingford and Walthamstow to Stratford. With the rebuilding of a station at Lea Bridge, the justification for re-installing the link is stronger than at any time in the last forty years.

 

[plcd1]

There are no plans to reinstate the Hall Farm Curve. I expect it is being used as a temporary store / work site for the STAR works. Despite a fair amount of local lobbying over many years and pressure from Waltham Forest Council no funding has been identified for reinstatement. I was told several years that economic analysis had been done which meant STAR got the available funding. It brings greater benefits and unlocks more redevelopment than the Hall Farm Curve would ever do. It's not that the Hall Farm curve has no benefits it just doesn't have enough of them despite all the issues about huge bus demand between Chingford / W'Stow / Leyton / Stratford, traffic congestion and changing development around Lea Bridge station.

I can recall a number of £25m being bandied around a decade ago for reinstating the curve but even in the far more generous funding environment then no one could find the money. Costs will be vastly higher now the resignalling work will be more complex in future and the cost of an extra platform at Stratford would almost certainly be lumped onto the project as STAR will provide 4 tph and there is the need to preserve capacity for ECS workings from Temple Mills into Liv St which run via P11/12 at Stratford. As a local it's a crying shame as I would certainly use a WW to Stratford rail service just as I currently use the T Hale - Stratford line and a bus home.

 

[AlanFry1]

The problem with Stratford is there really isn't room for extension to any platforms

I don’t believe there are any plans to extend the NLL. Besides, with a limited number of 378s and 710s, where would the rolling stock be sourced from?

If the two platforms at Stratford are a pinch point, I’d place my money on a third bay being instated.

 

[Dave242]

NR has looked at the possibility of putting in extra Platforms between 10A and 11.
And yes it’s a crazy not to reinstate the junction, doing this would not only free up space between Coppermill and LST, but help NE London have better access to Whitefields and Docklands. Along with freeing up Stratford to have direct access to the East London Line.

Dave

 

[sjoh]

Along with freeing up Stratford to have direct access to the East London Line.

Dave

How exactly?

 

[Dave242]

How exactly?

Dalston East Curve.

Taken out years ago, building on the land was banned and today its
https://londonist.com/2015/09/london-s-little-gardens-dalston-eastern-curve

Dave

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Early plans for Crossrail in the 1980's had the footprint of the curve protected for a branch to Chingford (with a grade seperation flyover at "Pudding Mill") ...idea was to relieve the Victoria line in from Walthamstow - but proved too tricky , expensive and lesser benefits than the old Shenfield line concept only...now of course bettered with what comes into service fairly soon.

 

[sjoh]

Dalston East Curve.

Taken out years ago, building on the land was banned and today its
https://londonist.com/2015/09/london-s-little-gardens-dalston-eastern-curve

Dave

I was thinking more about the lack of capacity on the NLL.

 

[Dave242]

What capacity issues?
TFL themselves aspire 10tph on eastern end of the North London line. And have publicly stated this, on a number of occasions.

Dave

 

[Class 170101]

10tph is a train every six minutes. this is fine if the headway is every three minutes to accommodate freight over the same section. Otherwise frankly this will only happen in the peaks when there is no freight.

It should said that terminating capacity at Stratford is becoming an issue. I believe Platforms 1 and 2 aren't sufficient for whats needed today and as a result TfL can be seen in Platform 11 at Stratford.

 

[Ianno87]

10tph is a train every six minutes. this is fine if the headway is every three minutes to accommodate freight over the same section. Otherwise frankly this will only happen in the peaks when there is no freight.

It should said that terminating capacity at Stratford is becoming an issue. I believe Platforms 1 and 2 aren't sufficient for whats needed today and as a result TfL can be seen in Platform 11 at Stratford.

Problems with extending NLL beyond Stratford to Chingford:
-Conflicting moves at Stratford Central Jn with Down GEML services using Platform 10A at Stratford (i.e. significant in both peaks)
-Significant conflicts with up to 12 ECS movements per peak hour between Liverpool Street and Orient Way sidings via Platforms 11/12 at Stratford.

Far better just to keep the NLL self-contained in Platforms 1 and 2.

 

[Class 170101]

Problems with extending NLL beyond Stratford to Chingford:
-Conflicting moves at Stratford Central Jn with Down GEML services using Platform 10A at Stratford (i.e. significant in both peaks)
-Significant conflicts with up to 12 ECS movements per peak hour between Liverpool Street and Orient Way sidings via Platforms 11/12 at Stratford.

Far better just to keep the NLL self-contained in Platforms 1 and 2.

I wasn't suggesting extending NLL services to Chingford.

The conflicts over Stratford Central Jn with GE services using 10A will have to be resolved but to use only Platforms 1 and 2 at Stratford requires 5tph to use each platform for a 10tph service. This leaves each NLL Train with a 9 minute turnaround plus a platform re-occupancy of 3 minutes at best - such the cycle from beginning to end takes no more than 12 minutes. Not exactly reliabile, so having a third platform as a bolt hole like TfL use now is useful.

As for Orient Way there are only 12 carriage sidings so only 12 movements in and 12 out associated with the peaks, split 5 in the 16:00 hour and 6 in the 17:00 hour (plus one other around 15:10). These generally operate via Platform 12 with Platform 11 being used for passenger services due to better station facilities on this platform. However sometimes GA services are routed via 12 to allow TfL to use 11 as Platform 12 has no access to the NLL.

 

[Dave242]

Freight, was not bacon factory curve put in to send it cross country the stuff out of F-Stowe! Yes there are a few that come from the West of London, but less than a hand full, from 6am till 22-00 so really not much of a problem.
In regards to Ripple Lane, Dagenham and Gateway, what about the Goblin?
As to Platforms 1&2, with the extra services we have no need to worry as putting in points at Hall Farm will not cause a problem, if Chingford can’t handle 4tph them they could even run 2tph to Enfield Town.
As to the ECS into Orient Way, they have no need what’s so ever to go through Stratford.
They can use Carpenters Rd S, Carpenters Rd North, Stratford International West and Temple Mills West Junctions

Dave

 

[Class 170101]

Unfortunately if you have 10tph through on the NLL then good luck getting extra ECS moves via Channelsea to / from Orient Way CS.

Most Thameside freight wlll indeed run via the GOB however anything bound for ECML ports needs to run via Stratford to either run via West Anglia or via Canonbury Curve and Hertford to reach Peterborough (and beyond).

 

[Dave242]

Nothing stopping the freight running Goblin, to S Tottenham West Junction, Seven Sisters Junction then Cheshunt, B Storford, Cambridge then Peterborough and beyond. I fact this route is used quite a lot, and is a back up route in case of trouble on the NLL and Southern section of the WCML for Gateway

Dave

 

[Class 170101]

I believe there is a weight restriction on Seven Sisters Chord due to its steepness up to Seven Sisters. Also its too short to be used as a regulating point for freight between gaps at South Tottenham to match with those on the Seven Sisters route.

 

[Dave242]

Sorry, but have to tell you, that is wrong. Many a time have been at Cheshunt and seen the Acton to Harlow stone working trailing 1800t coming round from Theobalds Grove. Many a time seen the Peak Forest to Ripple Lane going round to Theobalds Grove at 6am on a Saturday morning trailing 2200t. Just before the closer of the Goblin. And a fully loaded Leeds to Tilbury F/L.


Dave

 

[mr_jrt]

It's a shame that future-proofing for 4 platforms and tracks was not made at Stratford up through to Coppermill junction. Had the new NLL platforms been built as through platforms then with a bit of re-jigging we could have had 4 tracks up through Lea Bridge up to Coppermill. That shouldn't conflict too much with the plans for Crossrail 2's portals...and the initial STAR service could have just been a projection of the NLL service. Instead NR's options seem to prefer new bays built between platforms 11 and 10a.

 

[Spet0789]

To make best use of the platform space at Stratford, couldn't trains loop back round to the North using the curve that runs around the Westfield centre (apologies, don't know what it's called) rather than terminating?

 

[306024]

To make best use of the platform space at Stratford, couldn't trains loop back round to the North using the curve that runs around the Westfield centre (apologies, don't know what it's called) rather than terminating?

That would be Channelsea curve, running via Channelsea Jn, High Meads Jn and back to Temple Mills East Jn.

Running clockwise that would create numerous conflicting moves with Arriva Rail London trains terminating at platforms 1 and 2 at Stratford, plus long freightliners at Channelsea Jn. Also you would have to fit back in precisely to the Lea Valley service at Copper Mill South Jn otherwise you would be stuck at Lea Bridge on the return. Running anti-clockwise is not much better, and you would add a lot of time to the journey while you did a tour of Westfield.

Even if all that could fit, any delay on the way to Stratford and you have no scope for recovery on the return. On a railway as congested as the Lea Valley that’s another problem you could do without. Best leave alone in platform 11 with a suitable turn round time.