Halifax operator TJ Walsh to close

[Andyh82]

Long established minibus operator TJ Walsh is to close down tomorrow. It’s been struggling for a long time due to poor consessionary fare reimbursement, but the Coronavirus has tipped it over the edge

They’ve been operating high frequency minibuses in Halifax since 1994 and in recent years also have some tendered contracts. They also operate contracts for Sainsbury’s and Lloyds Banking Group

https://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/bu...company-tj-walshs-boss-decision-close-2516561

"It breaks my heart" - Halifax bus company TJ Walsh's boss on decision to close
The boss of bus company TJ Walsh says it breaks his heart to have to close the business.
The Halifax firm started in 1983 and began running bus services in 1994, but will stop operating tomorrow (Wednesday).

Managing director Neil Walsh said the coronavirus outbreak had made it impossible for the company to continue.

 

[RustySpoons]

It's always sad when a company closes down, but especially so when it's one that is so well respected as this.

 

[Eyersey468]

Very sad, unfortunately I suspect it won't be the only casualty.

 

[Deerfold]

They stated out running service 501 between illingworth and Elland in the early nineties. I used to see it pass Deep Pan Pizza in Halifax, halfway along its route.

 

[ivanhoe]

Long established minibus operator TJ Walsh is to close down tomorrow. It’s been struggling for a long time due to poor consessionary fare reimbursement, but the Coronavirus has tipped it over the edge

They’ve been operating high frequency minibuses in Halifax since 1994 and in recent years also have some tendered contracts. They also operate contracts for Sainsbury’s and Lloyds Banking Group

https://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/bu...company-tj-walshs-boss-decision-close-2516561

It wasn’t just the concessionary fares that finished them as your link clearly states. First Bus competition (Over bussing)and Council cuts also played their part. A career in politics awaits you as a master of spin

 

[Whisky Papa]

I presume nobody is going to take the contrary view, that they were pirates operating on the busiest part of the network during shopping hours only?

 

[Andyh82]

It wasn’t just the concessionary fares that finished them as your link clearly states. First Bus competition (Over bussing)and Council cuts also played their part. A career in politics awaits you as a master of spin

First’s competition isn’t extreme and they haven’t notably increased frequencies. All they did was buy some streetlites with a red front years ago rather than a random mix of vehicles used previously.

Back when TJ Walsh started Yorkshire Rider went after them strongly with duplicate routes 2 mins in front, but these days they’ve just run their own networks just with a slight bit more effort on the Illingworth corridors compared to the usual bland operation you’d expect from First.

Also, I don’t know what you mean by council cuts, as their bread and butter is commercial work and as the article says they’ve just won more tenders.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I presume nobody is going to take the contrary view, that they were pirates operating on the busiest part of the network during shopping hours only?

First’s competition isn’t extreme and they haven’t notably increased frequencies. All they did was buy some streetlites with a red front years ago rather than a random mix of vehicles used previously.

Back when TJ Walsh started Yorkshire Rider went after them strongly with duplicate routes 2 mins in front, but these days they’ve just run their own networks just with a slight bit more effort on the Illingworth corridors compared to the usual bland operation you’d expect from First.

Also, I don’t know what you mean by council cuts, as their bread and butter is commercial work and as the article says they’ve just won more tenders.

Not knowing the area really, did First do anything in terms of fares on the routes in question, either cutting them or perhaps holding them when they should have (and so a real terms cut)?

 

[Andyh82]

The weekly ticket on the 521/522/523 was £10 compared to the usual £12/£13 for a Halifax/Huddersfield FirstWeek

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Judging by what I've read, Jagger Green, Holywell Green, Cromwell Bottom, parts of Rastrick* and the Heathfield / Lower Edge areas of Elland will be the areas losing its only bus service.

*Services 257 and 258 formed an East Calderdale Circular that linked both Brighouse and Elland via Toothill, Rastrick, Woodhouse (which is part of Rastrick) and Lower Edge, many infirm folk in the area used it and it was also used to partially cover for the loss of the withdrawn Arriva 278.

Maybe First could extend and reroute in part the 548 to Elland to mitigate for the loss of the 258, as for the 257 that'll disappear since the 363 and X63 already run nearby.

This is what TJ Walsh ran, information taken from http://bustimes.org/operators/tj-walsh

• 257 Brighouse - Elland
• 258 Brighouse - Elland
• 504 Halifax - Denholme
• 525 Halifax - Ovenden Way Circular
• 527 Halifax - Round Hill Circular
• 555 Halifax - Siddal Circular
• 564 Brighouse - Barkisland
• 600 Halifax - Nursery Lane Circular
• 700 Halifax - Illingworth Circular
• C68 Sainsbury's - Halifax Circular
• E3 Greetland - Grasmere Drive
• E5 Elland - Jagger Green Circular
• E7 Greetland - Brighouse

 

[Deerfold]

Judging by what I've read, Jagger Green, Holywell Green, Cromwell Bottom, parts of Rastrick* and the Heathfield / Lower Edge areas of Elland will be the areas losing its only bus service.

*Services 257 and 258 formed an East Calderdale Circular that linked both Brighouse and Elland via Toothill, Rastrick, Woodhouse (which is part of Rastrick) and Lower Edge, many infirm folk in the area used it and it was also used to partially cover for the loss of the withdrawn Arriva 278.

Maybe First could extend and reroute in part the 548 to Elland to mitigate for the loss of the 258, as for the 257 that'll disappear since the 363 and X63 already run nearby.

The stretch of road between Denholme Clough and the A629 Junction with Thornton Road will lose its only service in that direction.

The stretch between that junction and The Moorlands in Illingworth (a little over a mile) will lose its only bus service.

Both these are on the 504 route. Technically they're still served but only by the express X22 on a Saturday.

The 257 and 527 are council contracts so may be reassigned.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The weekly ticket on the 521/522/523 was £10 compared to the usual £12/£13 for a Halifax/Huddersfield FirstWeek

Ah.... so they were squeezing them!

The stretch between that junction and The Moorlands in Illingworth (a little over a mile) will lose its only bus service.

Both these are on the 504 route. Technically they're still served but only by the express X22 on a Saturday.

Were they sections on the old Keighley to Halifax route (502?). Seem to recall doing it on a Calderline B10B, many moons ago.

 

[Deerfold]

Ah.... so they were squeezing them!



Were they sections on the old Keighley to Halifax route (502?). Seem to recall doing it on a Calderline B10B, many moons ago.

Yes. The 504 Denholme to Halifax (partly) replaced the 502. Initially it was a contract, but when Walsh were about to lose the contract they registered it commercially.
It includes various diversions the 502 did not have which used to be on other routes.

 

[Andyh82]

The WYCA will presumably retender the tendered services, and issue a new one for the 504, just maybe not now, so those parts of Elland etc should still get a bus service.

 

[Busaholic]

I presume nobody is going to take the contrary view, that they were pirates operating on the busiest part of the network during shopping hours only?

I've no personal experience of T.J. Walsh, but would just like to make the point that just creaming off the most lucrative bits was the making of Amazon, Walmart and (closer to home) Stagecoach and some of the component parts that ended up as First. There was certainly piracy during Stagecoach's rise to becoming part of the bus establishment and, so far as I know, none of that ever got attached to Walsh.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I've no personal experience of T.J. Walsh, but would just like to make the point that just creaming off the most lucrative bits was the making of Amazon, Walmart and (closer to home) Stagecoach and some of the component parts that ended up as First. There was certainly piracy during Stagecoach's rise to becoming part of the bus establishment and, so far as I know, none of that ever got attached to Walsh.

I accept that competition is at the heart of the capitalist system, although personally I would suggest that Amazon succeeded by offering something new and Walmart by its discount prices (as Aldi and Lidl have now done here). Stagecoach's past piracy (Darlington I assume?) has long been reviled, I'm less sure of which First operators you are alluding to?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've driven for two "competetive" operators, Bee Line Buzz Company (1987-8) and UK North (2003-5). The former did at least try and do something original in its early days, perhaps less so the latter! That said, even UK North offered night services to areas that had previously lost them, and was also a significant provider of school contracts that I doubt Stagecoach would have been massively interested in by that point. One thing that united them, however, is that they both had a strong internal narrative that entirely justified what they were doing, casting the established operator as the enemy and them as champions of the public interest. In the case of UK North, it was clearly also a personal vendetta by the owners, and I have heard it suggested that there may have been a similar background to Walsh's, at least in the early days.

TJ Walsh really offered little new other than serving stops slightly nearer the shops in Halifax town centre in some cases. Can you imagine the outcry if First had simply abandoned the bus station to do likewise? The vehicles for most of their years of operation, although smartly turned out and (I'm sure) well-maintained, were throwbacks to the breadvan days. Similar vehicles had long been deemed unsuitable for operation on the tendered network, but they did allow for relativley tight running times. Drivers that I can recall were mostly ex-First staff wanting to avoid shift work or otherwise disaffected - I even considered working there myself at one point before I finished up at UK North. I'm actually genuinely sorry that they have lost their job, and hope there is an alternative to be found, although that will not be easy at present.

Whilst TJ Walsh did eventually reach out into tendered work and did offer a few genuine innovations, it primarily existed by superimposing an additional minibus service over established routes during busy periods. Perfectly legal, and as I've admitted, a very well-presented operation. Whether anybody regards this as piracy or otherwise is entirely their call to make.

 

[Robertj21a]

I always felt that TJ Walsh was a well run, professional, operator that had simply found a niche market. If the passengers hadn't liked them they would have given up operations years ago. If First couldn't do anything about a small operator on their own doorstep then it probably says more about First Management than anything else. No doubt, after the initial years, First just accepted the situation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I always felt that TJ Walsh was a well run, professional, operator that had simply found a niche market. If the passengers hadn't liked them they would have given up operations years ago. If First couldn't do anything about a small operator on their own doorstep then it probably says more about First Management than anything else. No doubt, after the initial years, First just accepted the situation.

Possibly but as you say, some operators are able to find a niche and exploit it appropriately. Of course, you could what Stagecoach or Go Ahead did and vigorously defend your territory (see Catch A Bus in South Shields or Velvet in Eastleigh) but that does tend to attract the wrong sort of attention from the authorities. Many firms are now happy to live with a bit of competition as long as they can exercise a bit of control on things.

 

[Andyh82]

It’s notable that rather than just creaming off passengers at busy times, some routes were actually deliberately scheduled like that.

The 525 used to run between the town centre and Ovenden on a ‘frequent’ basis during mornings only, as that was when more people, such as pensioners were likely to go into the town centre. This was on top of the 600 which also did a similar route but ran afternoons as well. All these buses were more frequent than First are.

 

[Busaholic]

I accept that competition is at the heart of the capitalist system, although personally I would suggest that Amazon succeeded by offering something new and Walmart by its discount prices (as Aldi and Lidl have now done here). Stagecoach's past piracy (Darlington I assume?) has long been reviled, I'm less sure of which First operators you are alluding to?

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've driven for two "competetive" operators, Bee Line Buzz Company (1987-8) and UK North (2003-5). The former did at least try and do something original in its early days, perhaps less so the latter! That said, even UK North offered night services to areas that had previously lost them, and was also a significant provider of school contracts that I doubt Stagecoach would have been massively interested in by that point. One thing that united them, however, is that they both had a strong internal narrative that entirely justified what they were doing, casting the established operator as the enemy and them as champions of the public interest. In the case of UK North, it was clearly also a personal vendetta by the owners, and I have heard it suggested that there may have been a similar background to Walsh's, at least in the early days.

TJ Walsh really offered little new other than serving stops slightly nearer the shops in Halifax town centre in some cases. Can you imagine the outcry if First had simply abandoned the bus station to do likewise? The vehicles for most of their years of operation, although smartly turned out and (I'm sure) well-maintained, were throwbacks to the breadvan days. Similar vehicles had long been deemed unsuitable for operation on the tendered network, but they did allow for relativley tight running times. Drivers that I can recall were mostly ex-First staff wanting to avoid shift work or otherwise disaffected - I even considered working there myself at one point before I finished up at UK North. I'm actually genuinely sorry that they have lost their job, and hope there is an alternative to be found, although that will not be easy at present.

Whilst TJ Walsh did eventually reach out into tendered work and did offer a few genuine innovations, it primarily existed by superimposing an additional minibus service over established routes during busy periods. Perfectly legal, and as I've admitted, a very well-presented operation. Whether anybody regards this as piracy or otherwise is entirely their call to make.

You make a well-presented argument, and leave anyone to make up their own mind as to whether T.J. Walsh were pirates. Based purely on what both you and others have said, I wouldn't personally describe it as piracy, but, as you say, it's everyone's call. Regarding Amazon, as a bookseller selling new books only at the time when they started, and given that was their sole market for quite a period, I have a lot of thoughts about their practices, then and now, and some are even printable! Competition law in the U.K. was never anything that needed to concern this operation, because lawmakers were too timid/lazy/intimidated etc to want to get embroiled in one of those pesky internet operations that was probably going to go bust, and then the 'problem' would be over and they wouldn't have to look the other way again. I still treasure a headline in the Independent from 2001 'What if Amazon goes bust?' Then the method by which they succeeded in controlling the second-hand book market without legal intervention almost beggars belief. So I would use a descriptor word rather beyond piracy to describe them, especially now Bezos openly states there's not a product they don't wish to be involved in selling worldwide.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Whilst TJ Walsh did eventually reach out into tendered work and did offer a few genuine innovations, it primarily existed by superimposing an additional minibus service over established routes during busy periods.

I'm not so sure I agree with you about TJ Walsh. I don't think their routes, certainly more recently, were duplication of existing routes. They served areas of Halifax and Elland away from the main roads that didn't warrant much more than a bread van and certainly didn't get First buses.

But the ENCTS reimbursement rate for these sorts of routes is crucial as to their sustainability. I don't think you can blame First here; they do overbus to Illingworth, but they always have for some reason. And if you can't make money with a Bluebird Orion on a route, it's not commercially viable.

I think the Halifax Joint Committee were more what you describe, running a selection of clapped out Metrobuses or Darts on duplicates of existing services. Their demise was no great loss.

Many firms are now happy to live with a bit of competition as long as they can exercise a bit of control on things.

First in Halifax have only really cared about the 503, 576, 590/592 and the Illingworth circulars for a long time now. Everything else they've left to Yorkshire Tiger to mop up bit-by-bit.

 

[Andyh82]

That’s not a true representation of HJC, in their later years they had their main 3 routes to themselves, First didn’t compete, and Yorkshire Tiger run them now

These routes being the only ones Tiger do commercially in Halifax, everything else is a Metro tender.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

When Halifax Joint Committee was running, services 28A (Halifax to Highroad Well via Thrum Hall Asda) and the 36 (Halifax to Rye Lane) didn't rival any other First Halifax services but the let down was the shocking state of the fleet.

What HJC should've done was relinquished the 34 and the 36 (Rye Lane and Claremount circulars) and concentrated on the 28A and the 509 (Halifax to Bradford via Shelf), so that the worse of the fleet could be scrapped and replaced with something more newer e.g. an W, X, Y or a 51 plated ALX 400 would have sufficed.

Where as with TJ Walsh, you could sense that there was an almost weekly renewal of the fleet. Old Ford Transit minibuses making way for Optare Solo's (with the green destination blind), Plaxton Primo's and eventually the batch of Bluebird Orions which made the fleet entirely low floor.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm not so sure I agree with you about TJ Walsh. I don't think their routes, certainly more recently, were duplication of existing routes. They served areas of Halifax and Elland away from the main roads that didn't warrant much more than a bread van and certainly didn't get First buses.

I think the Halifax Joint Committee were more what you describe, running a selection of clapped out Metrobuses or Darts on duplicates of existing services. Their demise was no great loss.

Initially TJ Walsh pretty much copied First Routes with the 300 (Sowerby), 400 (Elland), 555 (Siddal), 525, 600, 700, 800 (all Ovenden/Illingworth) for many years. There were some slight deviations from First routes, but 95% of the routes were already served). More recently they started picking up council and supermarket contracts (E3-7, 564, 257/8, C50). The only really commercial route they've run is the 504 which they registered when they lost the contract. It was initially designed to connect with the Bradford - Keighley via Denholme service, but they showed no interest in retiming it when Transdev retimed that route, creating connecting times of over 40 minutes.

Walsh were the first company to break the "rule" since the late 70s of Halifax buses all being numbered in the 5xx series.

That’s not a true representation of HJC, in their later years they had their main 3 routes to themselves, First didn’t compete, and Yorkshire Tiger run them now

These routes being the only ones Tiger do commercially in Halifax, everything else is a Metro tender.

They had these routes after First withdrew from competition - there were some very intense frequencies at the height of competition, especially along Pellon Lane.

HJC began with a Sunday Service 46A Halifax - Sowerby Bridge - Hebden Bridge, every 90 minutes using one bus with a conductor. This was great fun, especially going down Tuel Lane. Between Halifax and Luddenden Foot this was identical to First's 574 at the time. Between there and Hebden Bridge it was the same as the 590/592.

Almost all their routes after that were duplicates of First services (392/592. 509/508. 376/576, 34/507. 36/535). They largely either doubled the First frequencies with First giving up on the 507 and 535 or just ran a few at popular times (the 392 was very odd with fewer than half a dozen journeys each way, cut off at different points, largely serving schools or being the return journey from a school journey).

Initially their routes all had conductors (and most were run with vintage buses) which was very popular. After a while they must have decided this was too expensive and they just became another company running old buses in competition with First.

When Halifax Joint Committee was running, services 28A (Halifax to Highroad Well via Thrum Hall Asda) and the 36 (Halifax to Rye Lane) didn't rival any other First Halifax services but the let down was the shocking state of the fleet.

HJC had the 36 to themself as First withdrew their almost identical 535 once HJC started running double the frequency on the route - as they did on the 34 to Claremount (now 22 running 2-3 bph in normal times instead of the 4bph the competed with).

The only recent innovation from HJC was the introduction of an hourly Sunday service on the 22.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That’s not a true representation of HJC, in their later years they had their main 3 routes to themselves

Towards the end perhaps so, but for the most part HJC's fleet were clapped out Metrobuses (they were knackered when I was riding them in the north east 5 years before HJC!), competing on First routes. The 509 the biggest example, but they even (briefly!) competed on the 576. The overbussing up Pellon Lane and Claremount was silly.

These routes being the only ones Tiger do commercially in Halifax, everything else is a Metro tender.

I know many of the Tiger routes are Metro tenders, but First are now pretty much absent from Sowerby Bridge, Ripponden, etc.

 

[Observer]

Where as with TJ Walsh, you could sense that there was an almost weekly renewal of the fleet. Old Ford Transit minibuses making way for Optare Solo's (with the green destination blind), Plaxton Primo's and eventually the batch of Bluebird Orions which made the fleet entirely low floor.

Not entirely lowfloor....they bought a good load of step entry Mercedes Sprinters!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes. The 504 Denholme to Halifax (partly) replaced the 502. Initially it was a contract, but when Walsh were about to lose the contract they registered it commercially.
It includes various diversions the 502 did not have which used to be on other routes.

Just had a check of my records (yes, I know it's tragic ) but turns out I did the 502 twice and one was 25 years ago nearly to the day!! Starting in Bradford on the 665 to Keighley on an ECW Olympian that I didn't record the ID of, I went to Halifax on the 502 on M405VWW, a Dennis Lance/Verde over to Halifax. The other vehicles that day were a fair reflection of the YR fleet at the time plus a YWD Olympian from Halifax to Leeds on the 223.

Second time was 15 years ago but heading the other way from Halifax and this was a Calderline B10B 60786 K119HUM. I didn't travel on any brand new fleet but one vehicle from that day is still in service in Keighley B10BLE X562YUG!

 

[Deerfold]

I know many of the Tiger routes are Metro tenders, but First are now pretty much absent from Sowerby Bridge, Ripponden, etc.

From Ripponden, yes. There's still 5 buses an hour in each direction through Sowerby Bridge (on a normal day). Far fewer than in the past, but a long way from gone.