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Had problems taking pictures of the railways?

Aictos

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28 Apr 2009
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Just got this email from a mate of mine:

Had a beer with some friends yesterday in the buffet at Stalybridge. Friend goes out in the car park for a smoke decides to take a photo of the pub next thing a female member of ticket office staff comes running up the road tells him he can't take photos of the station! Asked why not she says I have seen Asians round here taking pictures! It's not allowed so we asked her what the buffet has to do with tp express as we were on the buffet bars property. She then slinks off back to the ticket office shouting I am watching you lot!

Sadly there was a similar incident at my station a few months ago where the person in charge was threatening to summon the BTP just because some photographers not doing any harm wanted to photo some of the diverted services, the staff member's reason being it was because of terrorism or security reasons.

A load of rubbish and what ought to warrant a one to one briefing by the local manager, I'm sorely tempted to see if FCC will pay me to brief all locations :)
 
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12CSVT

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18 Aug 2010
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2: Shed bashing around crewe at the DRS depot i was on the road adjacent to the depot taking picures of the locos, and a security man came and told me to "pack up and f**k off" I wouldnt have minded had he been polite about it.

If you were taking photos from a public road outside the boundary fence, then what you were doing was none of his business.
 

nedchester

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If you were taking photos from a public road outside the boundary fence, then what you were doing was none of his business.

And you could have rightly told him to do the same as he told you!!! I would have done!
 

4SRKT

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I suggest your mate reports this odious and racist individual to the Police. I've a good mind to go to Stalybridge and take photos in the hope she says the same to me so I can get her busted.
 

nedchester

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I suggest your mate reports this odious and racist individual to the Police. I've a good mind to go to Stalybridge and take photos in the hope she says the same to me so I can get her busted.

Absolutely agree but sadly he's the type who can't be bothered to do anything about it. If it had happened to me then there would have been a letter straight off to TPE about this!!
 

GNERman

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8 Oct 2008
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North Yorkshire
I haven't really had any problems.

My list is:

- Approached at Leeds Station by a member of staff but she was just checking what I was doing and that I wasn't selling to the media. Very polite and considerate.

- York Station, told not to use a tripod when on the end of Pl3, the tripod had no legs extended and we weren't within 10 metres of other passengers.

- Finsbury Park, approached by a member of staff simply saying we needed to inform station management first, we were going anyway but no problem.

- Kings Cross, approached by CSO on station who said no photography, I showed her the NRES and NR guidelines, still insisted I didn't. Continued anyway in different location on station. No problem. (Not being at all racist but she wasn't English and may not have understood me fully, not meaning to be a racist remark at all)
 

Dennis

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Would it have been better if the PA had said 'stop videoing there, it's going to be a bit 5s1t'?
 

sjdavison28

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22 Nov 2009
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9
Location
Northumberland
I have never really had any problems when out taking photographs.

London Liverpool Street-My friend was taking pictures on the platform of a train that was getting cleaned etc. There were no passengers around and he was not using a flash or a tripod however, the gentleman from Network Rail patrolling the station informed my friend that he was not allowed to take photos. My friend apologised and left the platform. I then went onto the same platform to take pictures of the train and I wasn't challenged at all even though I was doing the same as my friend.

Finsbury Park-I was informed by a member of FCC dispatch staff that I could take pictures but not use a flash. Fair enough but it was daylight??

Kings Cross-I was taking pictures and an announcement came over the tanoy, anyone taking photographs are not permitted to use a flash but that could have been a co-incidence.

York-I have been stuck in a scrum at the end of the platform when a DRS 37 came in on a charter. The BTP asked everyone to get back behind the sign saying passengers must not pass this point. Again fair enough, just to point out I wasn't past the sign but a few were.

As a train conductor I have had problems with other photographers not being SENSIBLE. An example of which was when I was coming through Mirfield Station and was stopped at the next signal travelling towards Huddersfield. The driver was informed that there was a TRESSPASSER on/near the line and to proceed at caution until passed the individual. The reason there was a TRESSPASSER is because there was a special steam train coming through the area very soon and a photographer decided he would get a shot like no other. We started to move and there he was standing on the ballast in between the line coming from Hebdon Bridge and the line coming from Huddersfield with his video camera on a tripod wearing very dark/black clothes. Needless to say the person concerned was escorted away by the BTP before the train came through after delaying several services because of his actions a putting himself in real danger of being hit by a train.

Personally I have no problems with people taking pictures of trains probably because I do it myself but what I would say is be sensible about it.

Don't use a flash as it will temporarily blind the driver and if they are approaching a red signal you may cause them to have a spad.

Stand behind the yellow line, it's there for your safety and the trains safety. Personally it scares me to death anyone standing beyond the yellow line because of the dangers involved to them and the train. I think my worst incident of this was at Chester-Le-Street station. I was standing on the northbound platform with a lot of other people as there had been a 20-20 cricket match on at the Riverside. In the distance I could see an East Coast HST roaring down the hill towards the platform at full speed 125mph and a guy was just walking up and down next to the platform edge without a care in the world. I was just about to shout to him to move as the train was so close but he moved on his own accord. My heart was in my mouth at the thought of what could have happened because of his seemingly relaxed attitude.

Obey signs. If a sign is telling not to pass this point then don't as you risk putting your life at risk and you can also be arrested for TRESSPASSING if it is leading onto a railway line etc. If it is telling you that the station has a set procedure for allowing people to take photographs then follow it. If you don't then you only have yourself to blame if you are asked to stop taking the pictures and leave the station.

Remember passengers have more right to be there the you. They are boarding or alighting the train. Always give them priority, don't go off on one if they inadvertently walk through your shot. Just like when I was at Marylebone station waiting at the end of the platform for a Wessex and Shropshire service to pull out so I could get a full train shot and just as it got into view a Network Rail P-Way man walked into the shot on his way go and do whatever it was he was doing and ruined it. As annoying as it was he had more of a right to be there then me.

If staff ask what you are doing just speak to them politely and tell them what you are doing. Being angry and aggressive will get you nowhere and you have a better chance of being left alone if you are polite. If they ask you to sign in, then do it. 5 minutes of your time is nothing if you are planning to spend a long time at a station. Yes I know this is a two way street and staff should be courteous to you and I would always expect this.

Have a valid ticket, pass etc if there are ticket barriers at the station and you intend to take pictures beyond the barriers. Whether it is a platform ticket or some other form of ticket make sure that it is valid for the station you are at. Don't just expect the ticket barrier staff to let you through without a ticket to take a photo as they don't have to.

Now before anyone has a moan and tells me that this is not the guidelines set out by Network Rail or a TOC etc this is just my personal opinion. I am not telling you that you must follow these rules but they might just help you when you’re out and about.

I do feel that 95% of photographers apply common sense and obey rules etc but it's the 5% that don't seem to cause problems for everyone else.

To see my photos please visit http://www.flickr.com/sjdavison28
 

alexdodds

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29 Jul 2009
Messages
394
Location
Chester-le-Street
I have never really had any problems when out taking photographs.

London Liverpool Street-My friend was taking pictures on the platform of a train that was getting cleaned etc. There were no passengers around and he was not using a flash or a tripod however, the gentleman from Network Rail patrolling the station informed my friend that he was not allowed to take photos. My friend apologised and left the platform. I then went onto the same platform to take pictures of the train and I wasn't challenged at all even though I was doing the same as my friend.

Oh no not again. Always has to be that station

Kings Cross-I was taking pictures and an announcement came over the tanoy, anyone taking photographs are not permitted to use a flash but that could have been a co-incidence.

I think one of the announcers gets a bit angry whenever he sees people using flash.

Stand behind the yellow line, it's there for your safety and the trains safety. Personally it scares me to death anyone standing beyond the yellow line because of the dangers involved to them and the train. I think my worst incident of this was at Chester-Le-Street station. I was standing on the northbound platform with a lot of other people as there had been a 20-20 cricket match on at the Riverside. In the distance I could see an East Coast HST roaring down the hill towards the platform at full speed 125mph and a guy was just walking up and down next to the platform edge without a care in the world. I was just about to shout to him to move as the train was so close but he moved on his own accord. My heart was in my mouth at the thought of what could have happened because of his seemingly relaxed attitude.

They go through my local at 100mph I think. thats still enough to blow you away.
 

Mr Spock

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14 Jan 2008
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608
I wouldn't care I wasn't even using the flash. Must have been watching me on the CCTV though

I think it might just be a standard announcement there as I have been on the station and heard the announcement when nobody was taking pictures.
 

anthony263

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19 Aug 2008
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South Wales
Be warned if anyone is planning on taking pictures at Brockenhurst anytime soon, just read on another forum that some phtographer has had a run in with a jobsworth and 2 stupid British Transport Police PCSO'S.

From what i know ther photographer was forced to leave the station, even though from what i read, the station staff and the 2 officers in my opinion were out of line. hopefully a report on this inccident will find its way to Nigel Harris at rail magazine

if anyone wants to read it is on the first great western coffee shop forum.
 

bnm

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12 Oct 2009
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The incident at Brockenhurst involved me. Yes, I was forced to leave the station, under threat of arrest. Started with two PCSOs who were on me the moment I stepped off a train and went to the front to capture the unit number. Then passed on to station staff who went through all the 'you must inform us beforehand' crap. Knowing my rights (and the fact that rules on station photography are only guidelines and a courtesy, not Laws or Bye Laws) and standing my ground is apparently abusive behaviour. I was only at Brockenhurst to change trains with a very quick connection due to delays. Apparently that means you cannot take your camera out on pain of removal from the station.

As Anthony263 said the incident is relayed more fully over at the First Great Western CoffeeShop forum, although it is in an area only available to established members. I'm waiting on responses from SWT and BTP (who, incidentally, I contacted before posting on forums) before I decide on any further action. Until then I won't comment further.
 

jon0844

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When I had problems from a PCSO, I managed to get a 'proper' officer to tell her to go away (somewhat more polite, but a fair summary) and he apologised in a rather sheepish fashion.

The key is to stand your ground, as I think some PCSOs get off on the power they think they have by wearing a uniform that looks virtually identical to a proper, fully trained, police officer. I guess we've said much the same about platform staff too.

What worries me more is when a real police officer also thinks the same, which is a much bigger problem in daily life (as a journalist, especially) with some quite high profile examples over the last couple of years. Ultimately, the laws that protect me also protect everyone else - but most people back down as they're not sure of their rights.
 

Matt Taylor

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were they proper PCSOs or were they Rail Community Officers? The two are very similar but RCOs are SWT employees.
 

jon0844

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Seems that in London at least, over 500 PCSOs are being axed.. although many will be offered training to become full officers.

I am not sure if that's a good thing or not, as some clearly are people who like to feel big in a uniform and it would dangerous to give them the real power to go with it!
 

CrackBerry

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3 Jun 2010
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Last year, the following guidance was passed to all police forces for distribution. BTP should be especially aware of it considering where it came from.

26 August 2010


Dear Colleagues

Guidance for Photographers

I am writing to you in my capacity as Chair of the ACPO Communications Advisory Group which sits in the Presidential Business Area.

There have been a number of recent instances highlighted in the press where officers have detained photographers and deleted images from their cameras. I seek your support in reminding your officers and staff that they should not prevent anyone from taking photographs in public. This applies equally to members of the media and public seeking to record images, who do not need a permit to photograph or film in public places. ACPO guidance is as follows:

• There are no powers prohibiting the taking of photographs, film or digital images in a public place. Therefore members of the public and press should not be prevented from doing so.
• We need to cooperate with the media and amateur photographers. They play a vital role as their images help us identify criminals.
• We must acknowledge that citizen journalism is a feature of modern life and police officers are now photographed and filmed more than ever.
• Unnecessarily restricting photography, whether for the casual tourist or professional is unacceptable and it undermines public confidence in the police service.
• Once an image has been recorded, the police have no power to delete or confiscate it without a court order.

If you require further guidance please refer to the ACPO website or contact my Staff Officer Robin Edwards at robin.edwards@btp.pnn.police.uk.


Yours sincerely



Andrew Trotter
Chief Constable
Chair of ACPO Communication Advisory Group
 

Aictos

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Anywhere where we can print this off.

Just copy and paste it into a word document and print it off and have it together with the railway byelaws and the railway guidelines then you've pretty much covered everything, :)
 

CrackBerry

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3 Jun 2010
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Anywhere where we can print this off.

Sadly I do not think it was posted externally on any websites, all police officers should have received it via email from their senior management team though.

Ajax gives good advice though.

Just copy and paste it into a word document and print it off and have it together with the railway byelaws and the railway guidelines then you've pretty much covered everything, :)
 

alexdodds

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29 Jul 2009
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I came across a jobsworth driver on the Nottingham trams today (8/3/11). Standing at the front of the tram I was videoing pointing at the window. Just after Wilkinson Street stop heading south the driver turned round and said to me "you cant use your camera". I dont have footage of it because i rewound the tape and taped over it. I got off at the next stop and waited for the next tram back into the city centre.
 

Simon Poole

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21 Apr 2010
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Brereton, Rugeley, Staffordshire
I came across a jobsworth driver on the Nottingham trams today (8/3/11). Standing at the front of the tram I was videoing pointing at the window. Just after Wilkinson Street stop heading south the driver turned round and said to me "you cant use your camera". I dont have footage of it because i rewound the tape and taped over it. I got off at the next stop and waited for the next tram back into the city centre.

I think the Tram Driver is wrong becuase you can film in an public place, i went to East Croydon two months ago and filmed the Croydon Trams, i had no problems on the day, even know the streets were busy full of people
 

Bittern

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Now I could be completely wrong here, but he says a railway station is public space, which is wrong as it's owned by Network Rail. This tells me he didn't sign in or get permission from the Station Manager thus not giving himself much of a leg to stand on. I agree that the whole "security reason" crap is absurd, but it seems they were within their rights to kick him out.

However, as I said, I could be completely wrong and he did sign in and/or get permission. In such a case, the police wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on, surely.
 

jon0844

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You can film anything on public property, including filming anything that can be seen on public property. There are some issues with, say, getting up on a ladder to film in a bedroom window over tress (even when on public land) but I'll leave that to the lawyers.

It's also legal to take pictures or video of people in public areas, including children. Now I'm not saying we should all go around taking pictures of young children deliberately to prove a point - but it isn't illegal even if you'll probably attract a lynch mob for doing so (and if you wanted to take such photos for sinister purposes, perhaps I should say good luck to the mob!).

The point is, if you took a photo in a park and a parent came up and demanded you delete a photo as their kid is in it, you can quite legally tell them to get stuffed (in a nicer way, perhaps).
 

nedchester

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Now I could be completely wrong here, but he says a railway station is public space, which is wrong as it's owned by Network Rail. This tells me he didn't sign in or get permission from the Station Manager thus not giving himself much of a leg to stand on. I agree that the whole "security reason" crap is absurd, but it seems they were within their rights to kick him out.

However, as I said, I could be completely wrong and he did sign in and/or get permission. In such a case, the police wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on, surely.

The video is apparently taking OUTSIDE Kings Cross station so therefore on the pavement outside. I would say in a public area?
 

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