Had problems taking pictures of the railways?

[Ferret]

Personally were I you, I would be a little loathe to state that there are "substantial numbers of people" without some evidence to back it up.

Times have changed and things are much different now. I would take no pleasure in matters developing to a point where enthusiasts are not allowed on stations but frankly some of the posts on here signpost that as an increasing probablility.

This is the thing though OT - I can only go off what I see and experience. At New St, I never see enthusiasts in the reception area signing in, but there's always a shedload of enthusiasts downstairs on the platforms. But then, I'd like to know for sure what sort of proportion we are talking about which is why I asked the questions I have!

EM2s post was very interesting. The bit about MDs bringing their staff into line especially. At the time, Chris Gibb was in charge of a TOC, and I suspect so was Richard Bowker (another crank, although not one I know to speak to!). I must say I have an entirely differing view on the idea of banning being a realistic prospect. As I've said before, there are a hell of a lot of cranks in the higher echelons of the industry still, and what MD in their sane mind would want to give the tabloids an excuse to demonise them any further? Then of course there's the question of how you'd actually enforce a ban! As you say yourself, you cannot possibly have eyes everywhere. I just don't see it OT, I really don't.

 

[Old Timer]

As I read things, the pressure will come from HMG via the ORR, and TOCs will be required to provide an action plan to deal with the issue.

It may well be the case that some TOCs will welcome the opportunity and slap a blanket ban on.

The tabloids take the mick out of train spotters and frankly what MD would take any notice of the 24 hour spat it would cause. The public have no love of train spotters/enthusiasts/photographers.

Indeed you only have to stand near a railway line on a public road with a camera to soon start getting abuse and ridicule hurled from passers by. The funniest one of all, was a white van with two scrotes in it who yelled "get a life". From the looks of them they were the losers.

As for enforcement well it would be like smoking at stations wouldn't it, but who knows. As the incidents and the YouTube footage builds up (and be aware that it is being catalogued and filed away for future use) it will only be a matter of time.

 

[Ferret]

Well, the press do indeed take the mick, but then when it comes to tabloids, especially the right-leaning ones, they just love a story like that. And you just know they'd spin it to talk about tourism, and how people couldn't take photos of their friends at stations either. I can just see it now! Worth the aggro for a TOC? Probably not!

Moving on somewhat, I seem to recall a thread on wnxx a while back where there was talk of the guidelines being reworded. It was pointed out that in their present form, they were not practical. In particular, mention was made of the enthusiast who was just passing and wanting a quick couple of snaps. Anyway, that all died a death! I've an idea that Snapper was involved in the discussions - are you reading this? And can you tell us what went on?

 

[Aictos]

On this issue, I've found a page which Scotrail use and what I think is something that all TOCs should follow:


GUIDELINES FOR ENTHUSIAST PHOTOGRAPHY AT SCOTRAIL STATIONS

ScotRail welcomes rail enthusiasts at our stations who want to take photographs for private purposes or for publication in relevant magazines.*

The following guidelines are designed to help you have a safe and enjoyable experience. Please print them out and take them with you when at our stations.

We operate all mainline stations in Scotland except Glasgow Central and Edinburgh Waverley, Prestwick International Airport and Dunbar.

When you arrive at one of our staffed stations, please alert staff to your presence. This will allow staff to go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there and ensure that we remain compliant with requirements, including the event of an evacuation.

At a station which is unstaffed at the time of your visit, please ensure you make yourself known to the CCTV operator by signing in and out at the platform Help Point and explaining the purpose of your visit.

At a staffed station, please call at the booking office where you will be asked to sign the declaration at the foot of this form. You can save time by printing it and bringing it with you – along with an appropriate means of personal identification.

At a station with automatic ticket gates or manual barriers, please make yourself known to gate staff who will ensure that you receive a briefing from the person in charge.

Again you can save time by printing off the declaration. You may be issued with a Visitor's Badge which should be returned before departure.

Admission to a platform gives you no rights of travel or access to non-public areas.

While on the platform you need to act safely and sensibly at all times, and:

• Stay at least one metre clear of the platform edge - and behind the yellow lines where they are provided

• Be aware of your surroundings.

Do not:

• Trespass on to the tracks or any other part of the railway that is not available to passengers

• Use flash photography because it can distract train drivers and train despatch staff and so is potentially very dangerous

• Climb on any structure or interfere with or obstruct equipment or signs.

• Wear anything similar in colour to safety clothing, such as high-visibility jackets as this could cause confusion to drivers and other railway employees

• Gather together in groups at busy areas of the platform (e.g. customer information points, departure screens, waiting areas, seating etc.) or where this may interfere with the duties of station staff.

Peak hours - Monday to Friday between 06:00 and 10:30 and 15:30 and 19.30 – should be avoided wherever possible.

*Enthusiast photographers can take photographs at stations for private purposes and provided they are not sold except to enthusiast magazines.

You are not allowed to take photographs of security-related equipment, such as CCTV cameras.

Applications for commercial photography or filming should be made by completing the separate form for this purpose on our website. Media requests for photography should be made to our Communications Department.

Flash photography on platforms is not allowed at any time. It can distract train drivers and train despatch staff and so is potentially very dangerous.

Tripod legs must be kept away from platform edges and behind the yellow lines. On busy stations, you may not be allowed to use a tripod because it could obstruct passengers.

We must put the safety of our passengers and staff first. For operational reasons you may very occasionally be asked by staff to move to another part of the station or to leave the station altogether.

DECLARATION
I declare that I have read and understood the above guidelines on enthusiast photography at ScotRail stations. I agree to comply with any instructions by station staff, and to bring with me suitable means of personal identification such as a valid bank card or driving licence.



(Signed) ________________________________



(Date) ________________________________

Now surely that is much better then the current system where you sign in at some stations, don't sign in at some stations, get told rubbish by staff etc...

I wanted to get a photo near the FCC gateline at St Pancras once only to be told you can't take any photos here as it's a trademarked building despite being in full uniform and asking first!

Should all TOCs follow in Scotrail's footsteps and go by the same rulings?

Any views on it?

 

[GB]

Spot on as far as I am concerned. But there will still be some that chose to ignore it and/or claim they shouldn't have to let staff know of their pressence or who whinge about having to sign in or sign a bit of paper as they think its all "bollox".

 

[Dreadnought]

Virgin Trains have taken a different approach with the use of posters making enthuiasts welcome and stating what they should and shouldn't do, which seems to work as well.

Which method is the better is always going to be a matter of conjecture but at least these 2 companies are taking a positive approach towards enthuiasts.

However, I sure I read on wnxx somebody tried to follow the ScotRail guidelines at Ayr and being told they needed permission from somebody at Glasgow Central to take phots! So looks like ScotRail don't always follow their guidelines anyway.

Also, being pedantic, the ScotRail guidelines only mentions photography so if I'm not photting and only writing down numbers presumably I can carry on as normal?

 

[Aictos]

FCC also have posters but a uniform approach is required as some staff are still not familiar with the subject.

IF FCC did decide to bring in something similiar to ScotRail, how would you guys feel about it bearing in mind both staff/visitors would have to comply and it would cover photos, videos as well as taking numbers.

 

[Dreadnought]

FCC also have posters but a uniform approach is required as some staff are still not familiar with the subject.

Is that not then a briefing / training issue?

Would anything change if FCC did bring in a similar approach to ScotRail as staff would still need briefing / training on what is expected from them and as stated there have been issues at ScotRail anyway?

 

[Aictos]

Yes and No, Yes as it would mean a briefing being prepared for staff and No as it is intended to give the same experience to visitors regardless of the station and highlights their responsibilities!

Besides, a number of charters come though FCC served stations on both the TL and GN and would improve the working relationship between the two.

 

[Mr Spock]

Perhaps Scotrail could fall in line with Virgin and FCC (I assume the FCC poster is the same as Virgins as I have never seen one).

Personally I think this whole thing about signing in is a load of nonsense as it will make no difference to the few idiots out there.

As for the rest (vast majority) of us I still do not think we should have to sign in because of these few morons.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think FCC mentions signing in, and I also think they issued their posters BEFORE Virgin did. In fact, FCC might have been the first in the UK to put up posters in and around stations.

 

[Aictos]

Well to be truthful, South West Trains did predate First Capital Connect in putting up the posters, I know that my query to the MD was a leading factor in the FCC posters being produced which is the long slog of trying to make FCC more enthuiast friendly on both the Thameslink and Great Northern routes.

To be told that you can't photo diversions at some station which usually wouldn't see them for “security reasons“ is daft and suggests a complete lack of common sense or understanding of the guidelines despite material being made available to all explaining what is expected.

Indeed, although I am probably one of the few I do want to see more co-operation between the various groups of the railway ie enthuiasts, TOC staff, BTP, Network Rail, passengers etc...as they all supply a extra pair of eyes and ears and together pardon the old Railtrack slogan, “Working together to improve your Railway“.

 

[Temple Meads]

I've never had a problem, wouldnt take it lying down if i did either!
(biffbiffboom!)!

 

[Aictos]

In that case I would be very careful as the BTP could be called in as violence against staff isn't looked on favourably by the railway nor does it to the passengers as well.

 

[Temple Meads]

In that case I would be very careful as the BTP could be called in as violence against staff isn't looked on favourably by the railway nor does it to the passengers as well.

I wont go into what would happen to them!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I wont go into what would happen to them!

Obviously nothing, unless you really are that stupid.

 

[deltic1989]

The only issues ive had were:
1: At Newark Northgate I went with my new camera to try it out. I asked the guy on the ticket barrier if it was ok for me to go on the platform to take some pictures assureing him i was not going to board any trains, he said that was fine. when i'd got myself a good spot on Platform 2 I was apporoached by another member of station staff who asked me what i was doing, I replied that i was taking some photos and i had asked for permission from the man at the ticket barrier, he said that i needed a platform ticket but said i could continue as long as there were no members of staff in the pictures and i didnt photograph London bound trains.

2: Shed bashing around crewe at the DRS depot i was on the road adjacent to the depot taking picures of the locos, and a security man came and told me to "pack up and f**k off" I wouldnt have minded had he been polite about it.

3: Crewe station, on the same day as above. I was told by a station security man that it was an offence under the terrorism act to take pictures of passenger trains before he snached my camera and removed the film...... Lukily i had only just loaded a new roll of film into the camera so no photos were lost. but i went home in a bad mood and havent been back to Crewe since.

Mostly though station staff are very helpful in telling me what workings to expect, and quite nice to talk to in quiet periods, particularly at Lincoln Central where im quite well known.

 

[anthony263]

The only issues ive had were:


3: Crewe station, on the same day as above. I was told by a station security man that it was an offence under the terrorism act to take pictures of passenger trains before he snached my camera and removed the film...... Lukily i had only just loaded a new roll of film into the camera so no photos were lost. but i went home in a bad mood and havent been back to Crewe since.

Mostly though station staff are very helpful in telling me what workings to expect, and quite nice to talk to in quiet periods, particularly at Lincoln Central where im quite well known.

I thought staff are not allowed to take your camera/film unless you have been arrested or something?

 

[Aictos]

These two members of staff are complete morons as why would be a ban on photoing London bound trains but not on Doncaster bound trains and secondly, the explanation that photoing trains is banned under the Terrorism Act is a load of crap.

At Newark, you had already asked if it was okay to go onto the platform to photo some trains which you were told it was okay so that should be it, as to not photoing staff well the majority of photos are concerned with trains not staff!

I'm doing my best to ensure visitors to stations I work at who wish to photo a odd train or two, take down numbers are free to do so as long as they don't cause trouble or cause a obstruction - basically following the guidelines.

 

[Mr Spock]

Staff are not allowed to take cameras or films as far as I am aware and if they do I am sure it can be classed as theft.

How long ago was the problem at Crewe station as I have never had a problem there and there are also usually others taking pictures as well. In fact most staff including BT Police often stop and talk.

 

[Old Timer]

I thought staff are not allowed to take your camera/film unless you have been arrested or something?

NO ONE not even a Police Officer may interfere with your camera or its film/digital memory card.

NO ONE may require od direct or instruct you to delete any photograph.

A Court Order signed by a Judge is required in both cases. Any interference with the equipment is criminal damage, and any interference with the person is an assault. Both apply to Police as well as to "security" staff.

These continuing stories would be laughable if they were not so serious.

I am simply stunned at the complete inability of the TOCs to be able to do a simple task such as briefing their staff on the guidelines they (the TOCs) have signed up to. :roll:

Just as well that it is not something really important like a safety related item.

If the ORR had any balls whatsoever, its Inspectors would be looking into the TOC briefing processes, which a clearly not fit for purpose and present clear evidence of a failure of the briefing process that their Train Operators Licence requires them to have in place and demonstrate that it works during audit.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Staff are not allowed to take cameras or films as far as I am aware and if they do I am sure it can be classed as theft.

No, it wouldn't be theft. Theft can only be proved if the defendant dishonestly appropriates the item with the intention of permanently depriving the owner of the item. It is the intention that would be hard to prove. Theft, on it's own, is a very hard thing to prove, and thus the offence of 'taking without owner's consent was created.
It would be criminal damage as stated by Old Timer if any photos were deleted or changed in any way.
OT - I think if the officer did touch the photographer to try and seize the camera, battery would be a more appropriate offence - as it consists of only unlawfully touching someone - easier to prove, especially when in court against the police.

 

[Mr Spock]

I assumed that the security guard kept the film thats why I thought that it could be classed as theft but I see the difference now.

Its still unclear when this incident took place at Crewe as being a Virgin station it presumably has posters up which basically say that filming is ok for enthusiasts and I would therefore think that all staff on the station should be aware of it now.

 

[I T S]

I assumed that the security guard kept the film thats why I thought that it could be classed as theft but I see the difference now.

Its still unclear when this incident took place at Crewe as being a Virgin station it presumably has posters up which basically say that filming is ok for enthusiasts and I would therefore think that all staff on the station should be aware of it now.

I am horrified to learn this! i hope that this was reported to the TOC's involved as it's simply not acceptable and a load of balls is what they're talking about. If you were on a public road at the DRS depot it's not his concern. At crewe, I'm surprised as I was there on Monday and on previous times and never get hassle. If you haven't already this should be brought to the attention of the TOC's concerned.

ITS

 

[Snapper]

The incident reported at Crewe is of real concern, but the big question is - when did it happen?

Like many of us - I've been at Crewe recently and it's a station I've never had problems at. This is the first time I've ever heard of anyone having problems. The staff are normally very good and they are aware of the stations long connection with enthusiasts.

 

[43167]

The only issues ive had were:
1: At Newark Northgate I went with my new camera to try it out. I asked the guy on the ticket barrier if it was ok for me to go on the platform to take some pictures assureing him i was not going to board any trains, he said that was fine. when i'd got myself a good spot on Platform 2 I was apporoached by another member of station staff who asked me what i was doing, I replied that i was taking some photos and i had asked for permission from the man at the ticket barrier, he said that i needed a platform ticket but said i could continue as long as there were no members of staff in the pictures and i didnt photograph London bound trains.

2: Shed bashing around crewe at the DRS depot i was on the road adjacent to the depot taking picures of the locos, and a security man came and told me to "pack up and f**k off" I wouldnt have minded had he been polite about it.

3: Crewe station, on the same day as above. I was told by a station security man that it was an offence under the terrorism act to take pictures of passenger trains before he snached my camera and removed the film...... Lukily i had only just loaded a new roll of film into the camera so no photos were lost. but i went home in a bad mood and havent been back to Crewe since.

Mostly though station staff are very helpful in telling me what workings to expect, and quite nice to talk to in quiet periods, particularly at Lincoln Central where im quite well known.

What difference does it make where the trains are going.

As for the bloke on Crewe station he acted beyond his powers, hope a letter of complaint went in. The fact it was a new film is irrelivant, he is not aloud to touch your property. How long ago was this?.

 

[anthony263]

Today I was breifly spoken to by a police officer outside Newport railway station today as i was taking photo's of some of the buses used on the park & ride for the ryder cup. He said he guessed that i was just a photographer but he wanted to check.

I must say that staff were very freindly at Cardiff central even though the station was very busy even had a fun time trying to point some american passengers to the right platform to catch a train to Newport.


Went to Weston Super Mare this afternoon on the loco hauled which was great however i was subject to some abusive language by some passengers as the train left weston super mare

 

[deltic1989]

regarding the questions on my little issues at Crewe im not sure of the exact date but it was sometime in early 2008. Yes the security man did keep the film but at 18 as I was at the time I wasn't as up on the law as i really should have been, in hindsight i would have queried this with the BTP, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Other than those 3 I mentioned ive been photographing and shed bashing with my Dad and Grandad for almost 15 years without incident.

 

[jon0844]

Today I was breifly spoken to by a police officer outside Newport railway station today as i was taking photo's of some of the buses used on the park & ride for the ryder cup. He said he guessed that i was just a photographer but he wanted to check.

At that point were you supposed to confess to being a terrorist, or simply keep pretending?

 

[nedchester]

Just got this email from a mate of mine:

Had a beer with some friends yesterday in the buffet at Stalybridge. Friend goes out in the car park for a smoke decides to take a photo of the pub next thing a female member of ticket office staff comes running up the road tells him he can't take photos of the station! Asked why not she says I have seen Asians round here taking pictures! It's not allowed so we asked her what the buffet has to do with tp express as we were on the buffet bars property. She then slinks off back to the ticket office shouting I am watching you lot!