Had problems taking pictures of the railways?

[GB]

What reasoning does there need to be? Signing in at a station is pointless, and achieves nothing and is just another example of the nanny state we live in.

For the third time (and hopefully last), ignore the part about signing in for just one second...what is the problem with letting staff know you are there?

Why is it that some enthusiasts quote chapter and verse from these sacred guidelines and their percieved "right" to be there yet ignore the very minor of requests that are part of those same guidelines?....requests that most would probably see as at least common courtesy considering you are what is effectivly a guest on private property.

 

[Old Timer]

Actually GB it has been quite useful.

There are clearly a good proportion of people who are not under any circumstances going to co-operate with the Guidelines that the Industry has laid down.

The last few days have made me realise the scale of this and knowing this will be useful.

Trying to debate with these people is pointless, and a waste of your time.

 

[Simon Poole]

I do have an few examples on problems at the railway station

Incident at Lancaster (13/08/10) (you can read the full story with the link below)
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35612

Quick story, my brother was filming an Northern Rail Class 153 arriving and the driver was upset that he was being filmed and started having an go at him, called him an prick and treaten to call the police

Basingstoke (09/08/10)

Nothing major here but me and my brother were filming an Class 165 arriving, once the train arrive me and my brother got i and sat down, we overhead an coverstation between the driver and the ticket conductor asking what were they filming us for, then they realised that 60163 Tornado was running, 60163 arrived at Basingstoke early and the Tickkey Conductor went to get an camer and took an photo of it

Liverpool Lime Street (09/04/10)

Me and my Brother were at Liverpool, we there was an First Transpennie Cllass 185 departing, i was far out and walked to the end of platform 6, took an photo of it but an Network rail staff came up and told me that i passed an sign which wasn't very clear, he escorted me back annd said you can go far out on Platform 7, 8 and 9 and said that they do have rubbish signs, went to walk to the end of Platform 7 to take an photo of an Class 390 Pendolino before it depart, an Virgin train staff yelled at us that we couldn't go further than the second to last coach, we told then that Network rail staff said we were allowed to go to the end of the train but she told us that we couldn;t and was ready to call the police

 

[Old Timer]

Did you let the Station Manager know you were there at any of these stations ?

 

[CarterUSM]

Out of interest, are there guidelines for unmanned stations and halts?

 

[Lampshade]

...an Virgin train staff yelled at us that we couldn't go further than the second to last coach, we told then that Network rail staff said we were allowed to go to the end of the train but she told us that we couldn;t and was ready to call the police

That's good for people wanting to board the front coach

 

[Old Timer]

Out of interest, are there guidelines for unmanned stations and halts?

There is no-one to advise.

 

[Simon Poole]

Out of interest, are there guidelines for unmanned stations and halts?

There is no-one to advise.

There was an clip that i watched on youtube a few months ago, the youtube user GRANDCENTRAL43067 was filming at Northallerton Railway Station, an Manchester Airport from Middlesborough or Newcastle, i don't think it was planning to stop but the driver slowed the train down and asked them to get back from the yellow line

There an link below to view all of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izFzivyilfc

 

[Chester025]

I take it you gentlemen wont mind if I quote you at a meeting I will be at in a couple of weeks time ? ?

No, not at all.

 

[455driver]

There was an clip that i watched on youtube a few months ago, the youtube user GRANDCENTRAL43067 was filming at Northallerton Railway Station, an Manchester Airport from Middlesborough or Newcastle, i don't think it was planning to stop but the driver slowed the train down and asked them to get back from the yellow line

There an link below to view all of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izFzivyilfc

It would serve the tw@t right if he lost his camera (or an arm), what does he think the yellow line is for! Would it make any difference to be 2ft further back on the platform?
You will find that another driver has reported to the signaller that somebody is in a dangerous position and this driver has been asked to have a look, of course if the moron with the camera had been a little bit more sensible (and stayed behind the line) none of this would have happened, but hey he is a train spotter and can do what he likes.
I just hope some of the members of this site were not on the train; they will no doubt be asking about compensation for the delay! :roll:
Posting videos like this will give the "ban all rail enthusiasts" all the ammunition they need, carry on guys and see where we are in a few years!

 

[thefab444]

i don't think it was planning to stop but the driver slowed the train down and asked them to get back from the yellow line

Well if enthusiasts are breaking the byelaws or acting in an unsafe manner e.g. standing beyond the yellow line, going down platform ramps, running around on the platforms, using flashes etc. then staff are, in my view, perfectly entitled to ask them to leave and I would fully support them in this - these are exactly the types of enthusiasts which give the rest of us a bad name. It's only when staff hassle enthusiasts who are doing absolutely nothing wrong or unsafe that puzzles me.

 

[danfitz123]

Does anyone else have the feeling that this is getting beyond a joke ?

There are always two sides to any argument (or alternate points of view,if you like),but personally,I feel that the postings from Old Timer have crossed the line from a reasonable point of view to clutching at straws.

No offence intended,but in the words of Monty Python,"this is getting very silly".

You are completely right. Its all since 9/11 that everything has gone up the wall.

No cockpit rides on planes.
No cab rides.

It is just britain being paronoid! :-x

 

[GB]

You can have cab rides providing you go through the proper channels....there are various reasons for this and I'd imagine potential terrorism isnt actually top of the list.

With planes, personly I think its only right that the flight deck is kept a sterile environment.

 

[43167]

The driver was absloutly right at Northallerton. Not the 1st there have been problems there & I would be surprised if it was the same lot as in the past. The Camera was way too close. We all saw what happened (or nearly happened) Norfolk not too long ago.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ive just seen some of his films of a Voyager & Mk 4 set at Northallerton with drivers sounding horns as to say. GET OUT THE BLOODY WAY. Im guessing the same day.
These 2 should be banned. (yes I may be over reacting with that last line)

 

[ainsworth74]

These 2 should be banned. (yes I may be over reacting with that last line)

I wouldn't have said you were over reacting, I've just watched some of the other videos that Mk4 one it looks to me as if the camera very nearly went flying. Danger to themselves and the railway!

Of course its all well and good saying that they should be banned, but how would you go about enforcing it?

 

[142094]

Northallerton station is or was notorious for the idiots trying to get trains to sounds their horns. Again it brings the rest of us into disrepute.

The main thing that this thread has highlighted is the lack of clarity and consistency about taking pictures on stations. This is probably the biggest cause of confusion and lack of trust amongst enthusiasts and staff alike. Perhaps something along the lines of this should be implemented:

• Person wanting to take photos gets a platform ticket for enthusiasts only
• This allows staff to know how many people are likely to be on the station
• Can be used as a form of ID if staff ask you for it
• Should state that you are free to take pictures unless you contravene safety regs etc

In addition staff should be trained better in order for them to know the proper rules regarding enthusiasts and access to the station. This would hopefully do away with the need to sign in which seems to be the biggest problem.

 

[Dreadnought]

In addition staff should be trained better in order for them to know the proper rules regarding enthusiasts and access to the station. This would hopefully do away with the need to sign in which seems to be the biggest problem.

Presumably this is something Virgin did when it put up all its posters saying Enthuiasts were welcome and what was expected of them when they were on the station.

 

[GearJammer]

I think the key to all this is the platform ticket, folks have said that you've not had to sign into stations in the past..... but it was simple enough to buy a platform ticket in the past, seems simple to me, every station no matter who runs it should issue platform tickets, not just for enthusiasts but for people wanting to see off friends and relatives etc, that why no one has to sign in and staff are aware how many people are on the station!

Ive never had to sign into a station, what exactly do you do? Sign a visitor book?

 

[Old Timer]

.......The main thing that this thread has highlighted is the lack of clarity and consistency about taking pictures on stations. This is probably the biggest cause of confusion and lack of trust amongst enthusiasts and staff alike. .

I am sorry but I disagree.

There is NO lack of clarity.

This is what the Guidelines state :-

Before you enter the platform
At major stations please inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence. This will ensure that station staff are aware that you are on the station and they can go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there. At smaller stations you should ensure that you advise a member of the station staff of your activities.
You may require a platform ticket to allow access to platforms.

The issue is one of the refusal of a number of people to co-operate with the Guidelines.

After having been involved in this topic and seen some of the attitudes on display here, I can see why a proportion of station staff are starting to adopt a harder attitude. Certainly my views are now changing.

 

[theblackwatch]

The issue is one of the refusal of a number of people to co-operate with the Guidelines.

Including a number of staff! Claims you have to sign in, seek permission, etc.

 

[Old Timer]

Including a number of staff! Claims you have to sign in, seek permission, etc.

The Guidelines state you have to advise station staff.

Network Rail Major Stations require that people sign in, some TOCs may also require that. Some may not.

At the end of the day, a station is not there to facilitate enthusiasts it is there for the use of passengers. It is also legally a place of work for which the TOC/Station Operator has various legal duties and responsibilities to users and visitors.

If the station operator requires people to sign in then so be it. That will be in accordance with their Station Operations Manual, which in turn is a mandatory element of their operating Licence committments. These incidentally are legally binding.

Even Infrastructure Contractors have to sign in when visiting.

Whilst everybody can have their own views, at the end of the day as the saying goes, "he who pays the piper calls the tune".

No amount of ill-informed (its got nothing to do with terrorism or any other -ism) whining about it on here will change anything, and refusing to co-operate will ultimately lead to bigger problems by causing a breakdown in relationships with staff.

The greater amount of evidence of enthusiasts misbehaving on stations that appears to be emerging will bring things to a head at some point.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

The Guidelines state you have to advise station staff.

They're not RULES though, are they?

 

[theblackwatch]

The Guidelines state you have to advise station staff.

I am not disagreeing with that. "Advise station staff" is different to having to ask permission - perhaps some staff think they mean the same thing?

 

[Dreadnought]

If the station operator requires people to sign in then so be it. That will be in accordance with their Station Operations Manual, which in turn is a mandatory element of their operating Licence committments. These incidentally are legally binding.

Even Infrastructure Contractors have to sign in when visiting.

As an Infrastructure Contractor presumably you are told as part of your job that you need to report and sign in when visiting stations.

As a rail enthuiast what is there that tells me that when I enter a station I need to report to staff my presence.

I only know about these guidelines as they have been mentioned on various railway forums, what if you are not on the internet or forums?

Also, on the forums the discussions have mixed between your view that they are a mandatory requirement right to the other end of the spectrum that they are only a request to notify staff.

If these guidelines are to be mandatory as you are indicating then there needs to be some sort of campaign, via both railway media and station posters, to inform enthuiasts of this position so that they are aware of what to do and through official channels to brief station staff the same message.

Until then there will always be a debate about what enthuiasts should or shouldn't do when entering a station.

 

[alexdodds]

I have just come back from a weeks holiday in London and out of all the stations i went to in and out of London there was just one station which was no no and i would not try and attempt again and thats Liverpool Street which i already mentioned last Monday anyway i have put a complaint through to Network Rail about that.

 

[GB]

They're not RULES though, are they?

So you will be alright with staff ignoring them then? After all they are only guidelines right:roll:

 

[lm321412]

They're not RULES though, are they?

You say they're only rules but you would be the first to cry and throw your toys out of the pram if the staff didn't follow them.

Cannot see what all the fuss is about really, I take photographs all the time, respect the guidelines, ask for permission to photograph, sign in and get on with most of the staff and thoroughly enjoy my time doing my interest.

But, if you do start just wondering at stations where you require tickets to be on the platform, do not ask permission, don't stand behind the yellow line (like that idiot on youtube) then I cannot see why some of you are moaning and groaning if your not going to follow the rules.

You should see it as a privilege to photograph at stations, not a right

 

[142094]

I am sorry but I disagree.

There is NO lack of clarity.

This is what the Guidelines state :-

Before you enter the platform
At major stations please inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence. This will ensure that station staff are aware that you are on the station and they can go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there. At smaller stations you should ensure that you advise a member of the station staff of your activities.
You may require a platform ticket to allow access to platforms.

The issue is one of the refusal of a number of people to co-operate with the Guidelines.

After having been involved in this topic and seen some of the attitudes on display here, I can see why a proportion of station staff are starting to adopt a harder attitude. Certainly my views are now changing.

Again the meaning of guidelines - I see this as a lack of clarity. Also the phrase 'At major stations' - anyone want to clarify that?

Plus the way some staff go about their duties towards customers and enthusiasts shows that some of them must be confused about these guidelines as well.

 

[Bonemaster]

The main thing that this thread has highlighted is the lack of clarity and consistency about taking pictures on stations. This is probably the biggest cause of confusion and lack of trust amongst enthusiasts and staff alike. Perhaps something along the lines of this should be implemented:

I quiet agree, but the issue is two way related. last time I went to sign in at a medium size station, the response I got from the shift manager was "Why the f*** are you asking me for? Who told you that you need to ask me? We have got better things to do that have train spotters tell us they are here? Do what ever you like" and another time at a different station "They have to make up stupid rules for everything, we don't care here, do what you like"

Broadly I have found that stations seem to fall into four categories (There are of course the odd exception to each of these categories)

1) Network Rail stations where the guidelines are rigorously enforced
2) Stations that expect enthusiasts, who see the guidelines as a pain in the behind and an interference to them going about there jobs
3) Medium sized stations who get occasional enthusiasts who just don't care about or see the need for the guidelines
4) Small or medium stations who very rarely get rail enthusiasts where you get the odd jobsworth railway employee who has never heard of the rules, and believes there to be a blanket ban, so when you inform people of what you are doing you wish you hadn't bothered

Given the different local attitudes towards the guidelines I'm not surprised you get a significant minority who believe its just not worth the hassle of informing people of your presence, then add to that the fact that you can not possibly abide by the guidelines if you are traveling by rail, as you arrive on the platform!!! (so you cant do the before you enter the platform thing) and are in the wrong before you even start in this there is an implication that they only apply when not holding a valid ticket, and no provision for flying stop photography where you are at a station for a short period of time whilst changing trains and you do not have the time to inform people of your presence sign in then sign out again before departing.

As someone who narrowly avoided two railway station bombings, when railway stations were being regularly bombed by the IRA, yet it was a free for all so far as railway enthusiasts were concerned, so for me the security argument for them just does not wash. Yet some of the idiots who post there exploits on Youtube of things ranging from complete and total stupidity to teenage tomfoolery do not help the situation.

It would be nice to have a full open consultation between rail enthusiasts, and a mix of rail industry staff to work together to come up with some consistent rules, that have a fair consistent approach and that are communicated in such a way that some of the refusers and the reluctant compilers will understand the requirement for such rules, and why there are there, which has never ever been communicated in any way (Other than very badly as because, or terrorism)

Having had my experiences of the rules I personally take a very suck it and see attitude based on where I am and will sometimes ask and sometimes not, and the only issues I have ever had are taking the quick shot between connections.

My personal opinion is that the guidelines as they stand are unworkable and have no buy in from anyone, personally I would prefer a return to platform tickets, or some form of ID card system / ID photography permit that if questioned you could just show and staff would understand, or if you misbehave or act dangerously have it removed, although the cost of administering this would most likely be prohibitive

 

[GearJammer]

My personal opinion is that the guidelines as they stand are unworkable and have no buy in from anyone, personally I would prefer a return to platform tickets, or some form of ID card system / ID photography permit that if questioned you could just show and staff would understand, or if you misbehave or act dangerously have it removed, although the cost of administering this would most likely be prohibitive

I got to agree with all you say except the last bit about ID photography/Cards because as you say it could work out expensive to implement, the platform ticket should be the pass to get you on the platform and if you misbehaive (and lets be honest it does'nt matter what rules/signing in/notification you have to give your still get these idiots) you should have the platform tickt taken away and asked to leave!

I think at the end of the day the rules/guidelines or whatever you want to call them need to be simplified!