Had problems taking pictures of the railways?

[GB]

Likelihood of being injured taking a photo? Dare I mention the words 'square root of diddly squat'?

Well that depends, just look at the amount of morons that come out the wood work when there is a special coming through...ala the video with the man that almost squared up to 170 at speed!..amoung many others I bet

What I find most odd that enthusiasts preach their rights based on the guidelines that are disseminated to various groups and companies, yet ignore the part that would require the very slighest of effort on their part from those same guidelines. There is a small amount of hypocrisy there somewhere.

I'm still waiting for someone to point me in the direction where is says in black and white that somone is allowed to be on railway property for something other than legitimate railway buisness? I only ask becuase railway enthusiasts seem to think they have an enshrined right to be there anytime they want, without seeing somewhere that specifically says that I personally do not think they have.

This is one of the main reasons why we prohibit train crews from walking into/out of work sites or exiting the cab without permission. Our systems say that we will arrange for train crews to be accomapnied to and from, and incoming crews should really sign in through our site access control. Unfortunately train crews very rarely comply

This is usually (at least from my experience) becuase site access can be difficult to find and sometimes has no relation to where the worksites actually are or where the trains are located. Its not right and as you say, everyone that needs access should sign in at the appointed place but you lot dont always make it easy

 

[Old Timer]

....This is usually (at least from my experience) becuase site access can be difficult to find and sometimes has no relation to where the worksites actually are or where the trains are located. Its not right and as you say, everyone that needs access should sign in at the appointed place but you lot dont always make it easy

A good point GB and well made.

I guess it depends upon who is your Infrastructure Renewals Contractor.

When I was involved a lot more than I am today, one of our planning items was train crew relief. Where a site access control is remote from the work site then it is normal practice to operate track rats or a road vehicle to and from the site.

Where a train is relieved outside of the work site then I can accept that is more of a problem because it is out of our control nowadays. When we used to do it I would run a train to a station or jct if possible to assist with train crew relief.

Unfortunately whilst we provided absolute requirements together with times 32 weeks out, FOCs seem unable to be able to give us train crew relief information even up to the night of the job in some cases.

It is quite clear that our requests simply sit in someone's in-tray until the week of the job and then I presume there is so sort of mad panic as people rush around trying to work out how to cover the diagrammes.

A little more co-operation from that end would be enormously helpful to both parties I am sure. Unfortunately the brick wall of silence known as Network Rail Investment Projects exists to prevent any form of working relationship being created, presumably of the pathetic basis that if you divide, then you rule.

Mind you in fairness to GB Railfreight, I have always had excellent service and especially cooperation from those train crews. Freightliner have not been too bad, EWS is very bitty actually. Sometimes you get a good Driver, sometimes you get Drivers who use us as a way of "getting back at EWS" by being as awkward as possible. Unfortunately this impacts upon us and very rarely affects EWS so the whole thing is rather pointless.

 

[Ferret]

Well that depends, just look at the amount of morons that come out the wood work when there is a special coming through...ala the video with the man that almost squared up to 170 at speed!..amoung many others I bet

Like I said before though, you cannot legislate for such stupidity.

 

[thefab444]

There are always two sides to any argument (or alternate points of view,if you like),but personally,I feel that the postings from Old Timer have crossed the line from a reasonable point of view to clutching at straws.

Agreed, OldTimer will always say "I really can't be bothered arguing with arrogant/selfish/liberal/socialist left-wing namby pamby/ignorant/non-FC ticket purchasing (delete as appropriate) people like you!". He will then proceed to argue more and more vehemently with you, and he does often resort to using personal insults.

I hate to say it, but others have picked up on this too - outside of track renewals and infrastructure where he is obviously very knowledgeable, quite a lot of what he posts is borderline bull****. I remember a thread regarding CIS at Birmingham New Street where he tried to defend the staff without knowing the first thing about the contemporary CIS setup, and his lack of knowledge with regards to CIS terminology became evident.

And to remain on topic, in my 3 years' photographing the railway, I have never once signed in, and I do not intend to volunteer to sign in. If staff seek me out and ask me to do so, I'll happily comply with their request. Generally, though, I keep my camera hidden until the train I wish to photograph is approaching, less likely to get hassled that way.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I hate to say it, but others have picked up on this too - outside of track renewals and infrastructure where he is obviously very knowledgeable, quite a lot of what he posts is borderline bull****.

Oh really? And you are qualified to make that statement? Are you passed in Rules and Regs? Do you know railway procedures?

I very much doubt it. Any railwayman worth his salt (and believe me, Old Timer is) wouldn't profess to know something unless he actually did.

and he does often resort to using personal insults

And this isn't one to him?

I remember a thread regarding CIS at Birmingham New Street where he tried to defend the staff without knowing the first thing about the contemporary CIS setup

Are you going to provide a link, or is this guesswork?

 

[Ferret]

OT - I've read and understood what you've had to say on all this, but being realistic, how many station photographers will be affected by infrastructure works? I'd venture to say not many. As for security, if someone hasn't signed in and is causing concern, a 2 minute chat should be able to resolve that. And, I still can't change my opinion that signing in can be extremely impractical all round. A quick fot of something while passing through shouldn't necessitate signing in, and if I was a DSM I'd be well hacked off with a whole load of NEDs turning up to sign in. All it needs is a bit of common sense (from all sides). I don't agree with taking the confrontational attitude that it's all a load of b0ll0cks, but I do agree that in the end, enthusiasts have been platform ending happily for years without hassle and there's not a great deal of justification for that to change.

 

[thefab444]

Oh really? And you are qualified to make that statement? Are you passed in Rules and Regs? Do you know railway procedures?

I very much doubt it. Any railwayman worth his salt (and believe me, Old Timer is) wouldn't profess to know something unless he actually did.

I acknowledged his prowess when it comes to infrastructure, track renewals and other such tasks in my post.

However I refuse to accept he only comments on things he knows outside of this field, as we've seen in the many political arguments we used to have on here. He is a very compelling debatee and when reading his responses to arguments, one gets the feeling that they have been crafted in a way to "frighten" the other person into believing their knowledge is inferior to his. Personally I have given up replying to any of his posts, the whole point of argument is to try and persuade the other person to agree with your view point. This will never happen in a million years - Old Timer will always be a Conservative, who defends staff to the death, and who believes FC passengers to be morally superior.

And this isn't one to him?

Yes.

Are you going to provide a link, or is this guesswork?

Well, I'm sorry but I can't really be bothered tackling the somewhat inept forum search engine to find the topic. If you want to read it, I believe it may be in one of the automated announcement threads? Or possibly a Birmingham New Street thread?

Basically I made a comment regarding staff at BHM, Old Timer drew on some experience from the 1970s to try and defend the staff - as is his way, in his replies to my further posts he proved his lack of knowledge with regards to modern CIS systems, and associated terminology.

EDIT: If I do not reply to replies to this post, read the end of my second paragraph.

 

[Old Timer]

OT - I've read and understood what you've had to say on all this, but being realistic, how many station photographers will be affected by infrastructure works? I'd venture to say not many. As for security, if someone hasn't signed in and is causing concern, a 2 minute chat should be able to resolve that. And, I still can't change my opinion that signing in can be extremely impractical all round. A quick fot of something while passing through shouldn't necessitate signing in, and if I was a DSM I'd be well hacked off with a whole load of NEDs turning up to sign in. All it needs is a bit of common sense (from all sides). I don't agree with taking the confrontational attitude that it's all a load of b0ll0cks, but I do agree that in the end, enthusiasts have been platform ending happily for years without hassle and there's not a great deal of justification for that to change.

I would go with pretty much all of that Ferret. By "advising station staff" I presume some TOCs will want people to sign in, others may not.

I know that Major Stations have a policy that everyone should sign in.

I dont make the rules and to be honest I cannot recall why we ended up with guidelines. Still as long as we have them, surely people should co-operate ?

I fully accept your comment about years gone by, and in those days we did not have any problems that I can recall, but do you not feel that there is a rather unpleasant attitude developing out there ?

We can see it by some of the posts on here, and on odd occasions I have passed through or been waiting at some largish stations, I have noticed some "spotters" (probably the best word for them) pushing through passengers and generally not behaving in a very pleasant manner. Almost as if the station was their own property - maybe in their arrogance they think it is ?

 

[Chester025]

If you don't follow the guidelines to sign in, then OT means that you won't mind should the railway staff not follow guidelines and throw you off the premises.

Oh give over! Would you expect to sign into a shopping centre? No. Would you expect to sign into a Library? No. Yet you should at a railway station? Why? All three are public places so what is the need to sign in?

Agreed with Scott here, I will never sign into a station, it's just another pathetic attempt to 'stop the war on terror' :roll:

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Wrong. A railway station is not a public place. It is private property.

Would you expect to sign into a shopping centre? No. Would you expect to sign into a Library? No

If you were visiting the centre for the purpose of photography rather than shopping then yes. And the same for the library.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

Agreed with Scott here, I will never sign into a station, it's just another pathetic attempt to 'stop the war on terror' :roll:

Voice of reason....

All this will go to my head.

Carry on

 

[Chester025]

If you were visiting the centre for the purpose of photography rather than shopping then yes. And the same for the library.

Tell me then, why don't they want us to photograph/videograph at a railway station?

 

[GB]

OK, for the sake of argument lets forget the "signing in" part. What is wrong, and why are some people totally against at least letting staff know you are going to be there sometime? It takes a couple of minutes at the most, would likely prevent unsavory situations later on and would allow staff to go about their business without hindrance. Surely its win win?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Tell me then, why don't they want us to photograph/videograph at a railway station?

Who says they don't?

 

[Chester025]

OK, for the sake of argument lets forget the "signing in" part. What is wrong, and why are some people totally against at least letting staff know you are going to be there sometime? It takes a couple of minutes at the most, would likely prevent unsavory situations later on and would allow staff to go about their business without hindrance. Surely its win win?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Who says they don't?

Why does there have to be that hassle? What is achieved by it? Nothing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So how did the railway continue to operate all those years ago when photters/spotters littered stations with no guidelines and no 'signing in'?

 

[GB]

I didn't say there would be hassle, I just said there might be unsavory situations later on where one side of the argument meet the other.

What is achieved by not letting staff know of your presence? Staff have better things to do then have to walk up and check everybody out

 

[Chester025]

What is achieved by not letting staff know of your presence? Staff have better things to do then have to walk up and check everybody out

Why do staff have to check everybody out? If that is the case every person on the station should have to sign in.

 

[GB]

So how did the railway continue to operate all those years ago when photters/spotters littered stations with no guidelines and no 'signing in'?

For a start, I'd dare say with the advent of cheap technology there are a lot more photographers these days. Spotters of days gone by probably had a lot more respect for the railway, staff and its environment than a lot (not all) of today's enthusiasts.

Why do staff have to check everybody out? If that is the case every person on the station should have to sign in

Use a bit of common sense:roll: You don't think people milling around at the end of a platform for extended periods of time away from the general operating area warrants looking into?

I specifically said forget the signing in part didn't I? By virtue of having a ticket AND being in an area where boarding/alighting takes place is enough to let staff know you are there and what your purpose is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When all is said and done, respect works both ways. Respect staff who have jobs to do by letting them know you are there and in turn they should respect you and leave you alone. Simples?

 

[Chester025]

For a start, I'd dare say with the advent of cheap technology there are a lot more photographers these days. Spotters of days gone by probably had a lot more respect for the railway, staff and its environment than a lot (not all) of today's enthusiasts.

Cobblers. No difference from then than from today, except for maybe a few more spotters having cameras, still no real difference in terms of common sense.

Use a bit of common sense:roll: You don't think people milling around at the end of a platform for extended periods of time away from the general operating area warrants looking into?

No, I don't, but you seem to think it does?

I specifically said forget the signing in part didn't I? By virtue of having a ticket AND being in an area where boarding/alighting takes place is enough to let staff know you are there and what your purpose is.

So tell me, why should spotters let there presence known?

 

[GearJammer]

So tell me, why should spotters let there presence known?

I have to admit i'd like to know this aswell?

Usually when i visit Eastleigh i can identify the spotters from the passengers, why can't station staff do this?

Personnally i still fail to see why you have to sign in or make yourself known to station staff, surely the easiest way round it would be to bring back the platform ticket?
That way all the station manager has to do is hit a button on a computer and he would know how many people should be on the station.
It seems to be now widely excepted that you CAN take pics and film on stations without breaking any rules so why not put this and brief few sentances such as..
'By buying this platform ticket the purchaser agrees to obey all platform rules and signage, this ticket does not allow travel on trains' on the reverse of a standard platform ticket?
People (and i include myself) don't feel they should have to sign in when passengers don't have to, but i don't see anyone would have a problem with a buying a platform ticket........ i would'nt!

 

[LE Greys]

Went up to Aberdeen for the first time today and what a hassle it was getting permission to video. The staff are quite strict there.

Firstly i went to reception there and spoke to a lady what i wanted to do but she said no however she was just a conductor. I then phoned my mam and she phoned up ScotRail customer relations. SR phoned up Aberdeen and the travel centre at Aberdeen told them that no one had asked permission. So my mam told me what SR had said to her. I had to go to the travel centre and then the leader in the travel centre phoned up the duty manager. The duty manager said it was ok. you can see what i mean when i say hassle.

The duty manager then radioed the barrier staff so i was able to go through and video but however platform access is limited.

You can only go onto a platform where a train is due to arrive on or is due to depart from and when it goes out or everyone has left you have to move off the platform. Same manner as Blackpool North i think.

This is why I regard SR for been more strict than any other TOC.

Aberdeen used to produce some wonderful images before the barriers went in. Virtually nothing uses Platform 2, and you used to be able to see into the yard (now turned into a shopping centre on) where DRS had a regular container service. When they closed it off, you could still get round the back of the GNER staff office and see the yard from there, but not the HST departures which I used to watch. I once found two Lithuanian immigrants round there, friendly people luckily. Everything got very unfriendly when the barriers went in, I gave up on the place eventually.

Anyway, your best bet really would be to go to Stonehaven, a nice little station which still has a signalbox on the up platform. It's a nice enough town as well, I once saw a pod of Orcas from the cliffs there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have to admit i'd like to know this aswell?

Usually when i visit Eastleigh i can identify the spotters from the passengers, why can't station staff do this?

Personnally i still fail to see why you have to sign in or make yourself known to station staff, surely the easiest way round it would be to bring back the platform ticket?
That way all the station manager has to do is hit a button on a computer and he would know how many people should be on the station.
It seems to be now widely excepted that you CAN take pics and film on stations without breaking any rules so why not put this and brief few sentances such as..
'By buying this platform ticket the purchaser agrees to obey all platform rules and signage, this ticket does not allow travel on trains' on the reverse of a standard platform ticket?
People (and i include myself) don't feel they should have to sign in when passengers don't have to, but i don't see anyone would have a problem with a buying a platform ticket........ i would'nt!

I agree. The platform ticket was very useful. It proved that you were not up to no good if anyone asked, and even contributed a small but significant revenue, covering the cost of installing machines. If anyone from ATOC reads this, bring it back, please.

 

[Daniel]

IIRC Platform Tickets still exist. I have been able to purchase one recently at Waterloo, (albeit after an argument with several ticket clerks), and they are also available on the London Underground, (including ticket machines when the booking office is closed).

 

[40fan]

Wrong. A railway station is not a public place. It is private property.

If you were visiting the centre for the purpose of photography rather than shopping then yes. And the same for the library.

My local shopping centre is currently exhibiting a giant sand sculpture. A lot of people are photographing it and photographing their children standing beside it. No one is being told to sign in, the staff are not continually harrassing the photographers.

Maybe railway staff should call in and see how easy it is to show respect to people wishing to take photographs for private use.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You're seriously comparing an exhibition to a working railway station? Talk about clutching at straws!

 

[Lampshade]

IIRC Platform Tickets still exist. I have been able to purchase one recently at Waterloo.

You've succeeded where many have failed

As a general rule, most stations run by GoVia, Northern or Virgin issue them.

 

[GB]

Ralph, I think you are wasting your breath! Clearly there is no reasoning with some people!:roll:

Re platform tickets.

So let me get this straight, the majority of people don't mind queing up and purchasing a platform ticket but are completely against simply letting staff know you are there? How odd!

 

[EltonRoad]

Yep, that's the British mentality.

Reminds me of a Victoria Wood stand-up:

there was a couple opposite me on the train having sex, but being British everyone turned a blind eye. The moment someone lit up in a non-smoking carriage though all hell let loose.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Ralph, I think you are wasting your breath!

I get that feeling sometimes as well!

So let me get this straight, the majority of people don't mind queing up and purchasing a platform ticket but are completely against simply letting staff know you are there? How odd!

Quite. Somewhere, logic is lacking!

 

[Chester025]

You're seriously comparing an exhibition to a working railway station? Talk about clutching at straws!

No, it demonstrates that photography can be done without hassle.

Ralph, I think you are wasting your breath! Clearly there is no reasoning with some people! :roll:

What reasoning does there need to be? Signing in at a station is pointless, and achieves nothing and is just another example of the nanny state we live in. :roll:

 

[Lampshade]

Re platform tickets.

So let me get this straight, the majority of people don't mind queing up and purchasing a platform ticket but are completely against simply letting staff know you are there? How odd!

I only use platform tickets if the station is barriered or it's a CTA.

 

[Old Timer]

Oh give over! Would you expect to sign into a shopping centre? No. Would you expect to sign into a Library? No. Yet you should at a railway station? Why? All three are public places so what is the need to sign in?

Agreed with Scott here, I will never sign into a station, it's just another pathetic attempt to 'stop the war on terror' :roll:

Voice of reason....

All this will go to my head.

Carry on

I take it you gentlemen wont mind if I quote you at a meeting I will be at in a couple of weeks time ? ?