GWR Turbos reliability

[TJDevon]

In a recent webinar Mark Hopwood made it known that he was unhappy with the reliability of their Turbos. My main interest is in the Avocet (Exmouth) line on which I have established that there should be 4 Turbos in operation Mondays to Fridays but currently it is generally just one or two, which puts on enormous strain on the 150/158 fleets and leads to many short formed trains.

It seems pretty obvious that Bristol can't send the requisite number of Turbos westwards and maintain a decent service level in their area.

We know that one Turbo is always at Wolverton for its refresh but obviously more must be out of use. So does anyone know what the current problems are with the Turbos and what is being done to remedy this situation?

 

[fgwrich]

One of the main issues affecting both GWR and Chiltern fleets is the availability and supply of parts. I believe it's been alluded to by @Clarence Yard & others that one of the suppliers has somewhat unfortunately gone out of business, which obviously has a knock on affect on the supply to both operators. I believe Chiltern has at least one Christmas Tree unit, I'm not sure about GWR.

What also hasn't helped the Turbo's is frankly, they've had a rough time at Reading after years of almost daily use, sent down to Bristol to an unfamiliar depot where they've continued to be worked hard in daily use, with their condition getting worse.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Perhaps they should have taken on the 769's! I've not noticed any problems with the Turbos regularly.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In a recent webinar Mark Hopwood made it known that he was unhappy with the reliability of their Turbos. My main interest is in the Avocet (Exmouth) line on which I have established that there should be 4 Turbos in operation Mondays to Fridays but currently it is generally just one or two, which puts on enormous strain on the 150/158 fleets and leads to many short formed trains.

It seems pretty obvious that Bristol can't send the requisite number of Turbos westwards and maintain a decent service level in their area.

We know that one Turbo is always at Wolverton for its refresh but obviously more must be out of use. So does anyone know what the current problems are with the Turbos and what is being done to remedy this situation?

It’s been covered elsewhere, Turbos have a particular issue waiting for spare parts due to issues with the supply chain. Similar for some cl150 engine parts.

The spares parts pool for the 158s has been eased slightly as one of the GWR ones was stripped for spares.

 

[Siemens Staines]

We know that one Turbo is always at Wolverton for its refresh but obviously more must be out of use. So does anyone know what the current problems are with the Turbos and what is being done to remedy this situation?

It is two turbos that are always away at Wolverton at any one time. Today it is 165106 & 165108 but according to the Turbo refresh thread, 165106 due to be come out tomorrow with 165117 going in to replace it.

 

[FuzzyDuck]

Not noticed the Turbos on the Reading - Basingstoke line having any issues.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Apparently there are supposedly enough spare IETs to cover the entire Castle fleet when they’re all gone; well, they’re not all gone yet - less than a third are. What is stopping the surplus few IETs from freeing up more Turbos and Sprinters, from Bedwyn or Radley shuttles perhaps, remaining 158s in Cornwall if any, Swindon Cheltenham shuttles if any, perhaps and while not practical a couple of Riviera line services that could be swapped at Exeter like when 150/153 end up on Birmingham Cambrians?

 

[JN114]

Traction Knowledge ultimately.

2+4s are being brought out into service on some days, instead of the (now) booked IET; because at point xyz in the day the crew can’t work the IET. Then the next day the IET is In the wrong place, so lo and behold; the 2+4 covers. Day three. Crews sign traction and IET is in the right place; but after 2 days of substitution, the 2+4 is in the wrong place and the operationally most convenient way to get the 2+4 on plan/diagram back to Laira is to sub it in for the IET again - and so the viscous cycle continues…

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Everything seemed alright around Cardiff and Bristol to my eye, and same when I went home to the Thames Valley last month, but I believe @RPI was saying recently it’s become rather dire on the Western routes due to lack of stock and that Avocet/Riviera is becoming overcrowded.

 

[RPI]

Everything seemed alright around Cardiff and Bristol to my eye, and same when I went home to the Thames Valley last month, but I believe @RPI was saying recently it’s become rather dire on the Western routes due to lack of stock and that Avocet/Riviera is becoming overcrowded.

Fingers crossed its not too bad today, only one 2 car 158 out on the Exmouth-Paignton by the looks of it

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Fingers crossed its not too bad today, only one 2 car 158 out on the Exmouth-Paignton by the looks of it

Thankfully a weekend. I had a 2 car 158 between Dawlish and Exeter in summer 2021 and really enjoyed it because it wasn’t a busy day for commuter traffic.

 

[Snow1964]

There are definitely shortages in the Bristol area.

Some are clearly operating with unfixed parts, I understand some (not sure how many) are temporarily banned from Seven tunnel because parts like interior doors do not close properly so presumably don't meet fire standards etc.

I think it has been widely mentioned by a number of posters that some parts are out of stock, no longer made etc. However last summer GWR signed up to keep the turbos all in service until 2028, so not clear to me why they haven't refilled their parts stores with what will be needed for next 5.5 years.

With the pending MetroWest 2 enhancement of Bristol-Gloucester in May, there will be even more pressure on Bristol fleet, so not clear yet how the shortages will be fixed. Presumably the old plan to send loads of 165s from Reading displaced by 769s is looking rather dead.

 

[Parallel]

There are definitely shortages in the Bristol area.

Some are clearly operating with unfixed parts, I understand some (not sure how many) are temporarily banned from Seven tunnel because parts like interior doors do not close properly so presumably don't meet fire standards etc.

You’ve hit the nail on the head I think. Set swaps at Bristol Temple Meads seem increasingly common. Just last week I was on a 3-car Turbo which was taken out of service at Bristol and replaced by a 2-car 158 to Cardiff due to a fault with the internal doors. I’ve recently been on another one where the unit had to be swapped onto a Severn Beach service with the inbound working from Weston-super-Mare being used to form the Cardiff train.

Whilst safety will always come first, hopefully they get these issues sorted as arriving into Newport late after the extra dwell at Bristol often means long distance passengers miss the Holyhead connection, exactly what I observed last week!

 

[Energy]

Presumably the old plan to send loads of 165s from Reading displaced by 769s is looking rather dead.

769s yes. GWR and the DfT have a lot of interest in batteries, I wouldn't be too suprised if battery 379/387s or something similar sent all the reading turbos down.

 

[fgwrich]

This spoke volumes for words last year when I travelled on a 166 from Portsmouth to Salisbury. The problem is, as I mentioned above, they were absolutely sh*gg*d when they left Reading, and were expected to eek out further service in their poor state from Bristol, on routes such as Cardiff - Portsmouth / Bristol - Weymouth and the Bristol locals.

 

[Master29]

769s yes. GWR and the DfT have a lot of interest in batteries, I wouldn't be too suprised if battery 379/387s or something similar sent all the reading turbos down.

So they keep saying. I thought there was no money available. As for the class 769 debacle. Less said the better.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I think it has been widely mentioned by a number of posters that some parts are out of stock, no longer made etc. However last summer GWR signed up to keep the turbos all in service until 2028, so not clear to me why they haven't refilled their parts stores with what will be needed for next 5.5 years.

Because a lot of the problem is repairables or re manufactures. You don’t stock up, you need people to either repair or make them, if they get past the point of repairing. That’s not something that you can magic up instantly or even fill your stores with, especially if the repairer can’t get the bits.

 

[JonathanH]

GWR and the DfT have a lot of interest in batteries, I wouldn't be too suprised if battery 379/387s or something similar sent all the reading turbos down.

You would hope that any retrofitting of an experimental technology is proven before any commitment is made given the 769 debacle, so it would still be a long time before Turbos could be released.

 

[Recessio]

One of the main issues affecting both GWR and Chiltern fleets is the availability and supply of parts. I believe it's been alluded to by @Clarence Yard & others that one of the suppliers has somewhat unfortunately gone out of business, which obviously has a knock on affect on the supply to both operators. I believe Chiltern has at least one Christmas Tree unit, I'm not sure about GWR.

What also hasn't helped the Turbo's is frankly, they've had a rough time at Reading after years of almost daily use, sent down to Bristol to an unfamiliar depot where they've continued to be worked hard in daily use, with their condition getting worse.

What does a "Christmas Tree" unit mean?

Supply of parts seems to be a recurring problem on late 80s/early 90s stock. Before then you had decades of BR either reusing the same bits (especially on the Southern), or old stock going for scrap/spares. Afterwards you have modern components that are still made or have like-for-like modern replacements. But it seems the early 90s can be a bit tricky, especially for electronic components.

Wasn't there a Turbo with no toilet for months because of a parts supplier going bust?

 

[JonathanH]

What does a "Christmas Tree" unit mean?

It is when you set a unit aside as out of service and gradually strip parts from it to keep the other ones going.

 

[Snow1964]

You would hope that any retrofitting of an experimental technology is proven before any commitment is made given the 769 debacle, so it would still be a long time before Turbos could be released.

Would probably be faster to electrify the remaining gaps on Reading-Gatwick route if wanted to release turbos to Bristol. If some 701s finally enter service in few months, would be lots of spare EMUs too.

Of course we are not in 1930s when Southern Railway managed to get some sections electrified in 4-5 months from announcement. But with substations already near junctions (and others where lines cross at Farnborough and Dorking) ought to be easy to fill the gaps. Realistically even the safety police would struggle to show adding about 25 miles of third rail route to an existing network 100 times bigger (+1%) is a significant extra risk.

Even if the Thames branches kept their 165s, moving some west would solve lots of problems as could officially withdraw a couple to provide spare parts.

Alternatively maybe a handful of 150s or 158s can be sourced from another Operator cutting back, or renewing their fleets. Again would allow couple of turbos to be withdrawn for parts to keep others running another 6 years as per franchise requirements.

 

[FenMan]

A question for those who are far better informed than I am on such matters, given the end-of-life for the Turbo fleet is appearing over the horizon, when would the procurement process begin for the replacement fleet?

 

[RailWonderer]

Would probably be faster to electrify the remaining gaps on Reading-Gatwick route if wanted to release turbos to Bristol. If some 701s finally enter service in few months, would be lots of spare EMUs too.

Of course we are not in 1930s when Southern Railway managed to get some sections electrified in 4-5 months from announcement. But with substations already near junctions (and others where lines cross at Farnborough and Dorking) ought to be easy to fill the gaps. Realistically even the safety police would struggle to show adding about 25 miles of third rail route to an existing network 100 times bigger (+1%) is a significant extra risk.

Even if the Thames branches kept their 165s, moving some west would solve lots of problems as could officially withdraw a couple to provide spare parts.

Alternatively maybe a handful of 150s or 158s can be sourced from another Operator cutting back, or renewing their fleets. Again would allow couple of turbos to be withdrawn for parts to keep others running another 6 years as per franchise requirements.

The North Downs should have been done years ago since everything else was but the argument always that it was lightly used with sparse traffic between Reading, Guildford, Dorking and Redhill, besides from a few students and ramblers.

I think after the Greenford branch all the other Thames Valley branches will go to 230 operation and free a handful more Turbos, even if they don't need parts, a less intensive more reliable service will be welcomed.

TfW 158s are going free and we still don't know where those are headed through GWR makes the most sense to displace the IETs that will cover for the lost Castle HSTs.

 

[JonathanH]

A question for those who are far better informed than I am on such matters, given the end-of-life for the Turbo fleet is appearing over the horizon, when would the procurement process begin for the replacement fleet?

There is already a project underway, Project Churchward, but for replacement around the end of the decade. The first stage is to determine the requirements for fleet replacement.

The North Downs should have been done years ago since everything else was but the argument always that it was lightly used with sparse traffic between Reading, Guildford, Dorking and Redhill, besides from a few students and ramblers.

It could have been done in the early 1990s, as 4-CEPs became spare on the Southeastern. No replacement fleet was ordered for the North Downs when the Turbos were procured. It looked like some facelifted 117s were to be kept as the diesel fleet on the North Downs pending electrification.

However, NSE had allowed for a 'growth build' on the Chiltern lines, and it was possible to free up seven Turbos from there to run the North Downs. It has remained diesel ever since.

Turbos brought an increase in North Downs custom, but no impetus to replace them. When more stock was needed for the Chiltern and Thames routes, effectively they were backfilled with the 168s on Chiltern and spare GW stock (Adelantes then HSTs) on Thames.

 

[cactustwirly]

The North Downs should have been done years ago since everything else was but the argument always that it was lightly used with sparse traffic between Reading, Guildford, Dorking and Redhill, besides from a few students and ramblers.

I think after the Greenford branch all the other Thames Valley branches will go to 230 operation and free a handful more Turbos, even if they don't need parts, a less intensive more reliable service will be welcomed.

TfW 158s are going free and we still don't know where those are headed through GWR makes the most sense to displace the IETs that will cover for the lost Castle HSTs.

I don't think 230s are suitable for the Windsor line or even the Henley line.

How long do the batteries last without a charge, the Marlow unit spends the peak times shuttling between Bourne End and Marlow

 

[MacT]

There are definitely shortages in the Bristol area.

Some are clearly operating with unfixed parts, I understand some (not sure how many) are temporarily banned from Seven tunnel because parts like interior doors do not close properly so presumably don't meet fire standards etc.

I think it has been widely mentioned by a number of posters that some parts are out of stock, no longer made etc. However last summer GWR signed up to keep the turbos all in service until 2028, so not clear to me why they haven't refilled their parts stores with what will be needed for next 5.5 years.

With the pending MetroWest 2 enhancement of Bristol-Gloucester in May, there will be even more pressure on Bristol fleet, so not clear yet how the shortages will be fixed. Presumably the old plan to send loads of 165s from Reading displaced by 769s is looking rather dead.

Took a trip to Bristol last week, on my return journey, had a 2 car 165 vice a 3 car 165/166. This lead to some rather apparent overcrowding issues between Bath & Westbury. The guard did apologise for this, but it's hardly their fault.