GWR train - Not Valid Railcard by 3 minutes.

[Envoy]

I see that GWR are going to start operating a 2 hourly service to/from Carmarthen from the May timetable change. However, trains will leave Carmarthen at 9.27 on weekdays meaning that those with most Railcards will not be able to use them on this service due to the 9.30 rule on weekdays. The next departure is 2 hours away. This seems incredibly mean to deny the Railcard discount by 3 minutes on a service that is so infrequent.

Not sure what the loadings will be but it also rules out using most Railcards on the 8.42 GWR train from Cardiff to Carmarthen on weekdays.

 

[Birmingham]

Well there’s got to be a cut-off somewhere, and they’re not exactly going to time the train in accordance with railcard restrictions! There is a list of easements for railcard users somewhere, which the service could be added to if you really wanted to pursue that.

 

[Watershed]

I see that GWR are going to start operating a 2 hourly service to/from Carmarthen from the May timetable change. However, trains will leave Carmarthen at 9.27 on weekdays meaning that those with most Railcards will not be able to use them on this service due to the 9.30 rule on weekdays. The next departure is 2 hours away. This seems incredibly mean to deny the Railcard discount by 3 minutes on a service that is so infrequent.

The only Railcard that will be disallowed will be the Two Together Railcard. All other Railcards would either have no time restrictions from Carmarthen, or are only valid from 10am for a short journey with a fare of less than £12.

The 09:27 is an additional service that has never existed before, so it's not like as if a longstanding train has been retimed earlier.

You're free to contact GWR to ask them to add an easement but I wouldn't expect much success.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not entirely clear what the journey is, but could the restriction be circumvented by purchasing an Anytime Day Return to, say, Ferryside and re-booking from there?

 

[Envoy]

GWR are probably only adding these Carmarthen services because they know that Grand Union Trains are going to start running fast trains to Carmarthen in about 2 years. This really is a niggly restriction which will create ill will towards the company.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2023 ==

Not entirely clear what the journey is, but could the restriction be circumvented by purchasing an Anytime Day Return to, say, Ferryside and re-booking from there?

Train does not stop at Ferryside.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Train does not stop at Ferryside.

That could be a problem.

 

[RPI]

Its only the two together railcard effected and there has to be a cut off, people complain about multiple confusing restrictions but yet that's the alternative in the grand scheme of things. If you're going long distance buy a ticket with no railcard to the next stop and then the two together discounted ticket from there id suggest.

 

[Class800]

Well there’s got to be a cut-off somewhere, and they’re not exactly going to time the train in accordance with railcard restrictions! There is a list of easements for railcard users somewhere, which the service could be added to if you really wanted to pursue that.

I think they should - but it's not something that always happens. There used to be a 09.29 from my local station and it took years for it to be retimed to 09.31

 

[skyhigh]

I think they should - but it's not something that always happens. There used to be a 09.29 from my local station and it took years for it to be retimed to 09.31

I highly doubt the train was retimed just so you could use a railcard on it - it was likely just a result of wider changes. There are enough issues with pathing anyway without considering railcard restrictions!

 

[Snow1964]

Although two together is not valid until 09:30, GWR also have group save (for 3-9 people, no railcard required). Group save works on off-peak tickets (which are usually 09:30 in big cities, or 09:00 elsewhere).

Haven't checked which time Carmarthen falls into, but could have farce of 3 or more travelling can have valid off-peak with third off under group save on 09:27, but two together can't.

 

[spag23]

And remember that even if the 927 departs 4 minutes late, it's still the "0927" for ticket validity purposes.

 

[Starmill]

This really is a niggly restriction which will create ill will towards the company.

Only among people who regularly want to leave Carmarthen in the morning using a Two Together Railcard...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2023 ==

Although two together is not valid until 09:30, GWR also have group save (for 3-9 people, no railcard required). Group save works on off-peak tickets (which are usually 09:30 in big cities, or 09:00 elsewhere).

Haven't checked which time Carmarthen falls into, but could have farce of 3 or more travelling can have valid off-peak with third off under group save on 09:27, but two together can't.

Carmarthen to Swansea and Carmarthen to Cardiff doesn't have any Off Peak tickets with time restrictions.

 

[4COR]

Although two together is not valid until 09:30, GWR also have group save (for 3-9 people, no railcard required). Group save works on off-peak tickets (which are usually 09:30 in big cities, or 09:00 elsewhere).

Haven't checked which time Carmarthen falls into, but could have farce of 3 or more travelling can have valid off-peak with third off under group save on 09:27, but two together can't.

I wasn't able to get any Groupsave tickets for various searches. It has to be using Off-Peak, and not using TFW services (not valid). Even then, choosing something like the current once a day GWR service from Carmarthen to Cardiff and return, on which the Off-Peak Day return appears valid (no time restrictions) won't return Groupsave tickets. I don't know if there are further discount restrictions in the data here.

 

[Watershed]

GWR are probably only adding these Carmarthen services because they know that Grand Union Trains are going to start running fast trains to Carmarthen in about 2 years.

They're adding them on the DfT's instruction, but yes. It's clearly a ploy to destroy the viability of GUT's services. I wouldn't be surprised to see them withdrawn again in a future round of cost-cutting if it sees off GUT.

This really is a niggly restriction which will create ill will towards the company.

I'm really struggling to see how you're taking the introduction of a great new through service and coming to this conclusion. I suspect 99% of people will think "ooh, that's a nice new train" (in stark contrast to the clapped out 150s and 153s that you would usually get on TfW), or they'll just see that the next train is a bit cheaper if they're in the tiny minority of people who use a Two Together Railcard, and make their choice accordingly.

The option of splitting at Pembrey & Burry Port is always there if you want...

 

[Sm5]

Theres an 0929 from my station, and the staff / machine readers wont let you on the platform with an off peak Until 0930, after its gone.

rules are rules.

if I pay peak, I dont want a trainload off peaker taking my space, at least until 0931 at the next station 1 mile away.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks everybody for your input thus far. I would not think that this 9.27 from Carmarthen would be rammed and when it gets to Swansea, it will pick up another 5 coaches - all being well. If people with the 2 Together Railcard can’t use it, I guess they would get the next service - which would be run by TfW* and probably just 2 coaches. I would think it is in everyones interests to get people leaving Carmarthen onto that 9.27 departure - passengers, TfW - to give some relief from their overcrowded trains and GWR to entice people to rail travel who in west Wales have had a raw deal.

By have this petty restriction by 3 minutes on an infrequent service could well mean that Carmarthen passengers with 2 Together Railcards will choose Saturdays to use this train. I would think it better to have such people ‘spread out’ throughout the week. Of course, much depends on how much publicity GWR give to their enhanced services in south west Wales. If people don’t know about it, they won't use it.

Many people won’t think of buying a ticket to the first stop at Pembrey & Burry Port and then another (using the Railcard) to wherever they wish to travel. Does doing this also skew the statistics on how many people use particular stations and where they travel?

* 10.01 departure from Carmarthen to Manchester - which started from Milford Haven so will not be starting empty at Carmarthen. All the more reason to have Carmarthen passengers off and away on the 9.27 GWR train.

 

[Haywain]

It's not a petty restriction, its a national restriction - there will be trains all over the network with departure times just before 09.30. Should all of them be allowed or some random selection?

 

[Benjwri]

Many thanks everybody for your input thus far. I would not think that this 9.27 from Carmarthen would be rammed and when it gets to Swansea, it will pick up another 5 coaches - all being well. If people with the 2 Together Railcard can’t use it, I guess they would get the next service - which would be run by TfW* and probably just 2 coaches. I would think it is in everyones interests to get people leaving Carmarthen onto that 9.27 departure - passengers, TfW - to give some relief from their overcrowded trains and GWR to entice people to rail travel who in west Wales have had a raw deal.

By have this petty restriction by 3 minutes on an infrequent service could well mean that Carmarthen passengers with 2 Together Railcards will choose Saturdays to use this train. I would think it better to have such people ‘spread out’ throughout the week. Of course, much depends on how much publicity GWR give to their enhanced services in south west Wales. If people don’t know about it, they won't use it.

Many people won’t think of buying a ticket to the first stop at Pembrey & Burry Port and then another (using the Railcard) to wherever they wish to travel. Does doing this also skew the statistics on how many people use particular stations and where they travel?

* 10.01 departure from Carmarthen to Manchester - which started from Milford Haven so will not be starting empty at Carmarthen. All the more reason to have Carmarthen passengers off and away on the 9.27 GWR train.

There are hundred, if not thousands, of trains that stop somewhere just before 9:30 every day, you can’t create easements for them all, and you can’t move the time because then what about the trains that are now cut off by a minute.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Been a similar issue at Northwich over recent years which the Mid Cheshire Rail Users Association have often griped about. There's an 0928 departure from Northwich for Manchester Piccadilly, which is just too early to use a 'GM Wayfarer' type ticket during the week. Either you buy a £2.80 single to the next station along the line (Lostock Gralam) or wait an hour.

 

[wilbers]

It's not a petty restriction, its a national restriction - there will be trains all over the network with departure times just before 09.30. Should all of them be allowed or some random selection?

Isn't the point that this is for an infrequent train, rather than somewhere there is another 30 minutes (or less) later?

 

[Starmill]

Many thanks everybody for your input thus far. I would not think that this 9.27 from Carmarthen would be rammed and when it gets to Swansea, it will pick up another 5 coaches - all being well. If people with the 2 Together Railcard can’t use it, I guess they would get the next service - which would be run by TfW* and probably just 2 coaches. I would think it is in everyones interests to get people leaving Carmarthen onto that 9.27 departure - passengers, TfW - to give some relief from their overcrowded trains and GWR to entice people to rail travel who in west Wales have had a raw deal.

By have this petty restriction by 3 minutes on an infrequent service could well mean that Carmarthen passengers with 2 Together Railcards will choose Saturdays to use this train. I would think it better to have such people ‘spread out’ throughout the week. Of course, much depends on how much publicity GWR give to their enhanced services in south west Wales. If people don’t know about it, they won't use it.

Many people won’t think of buying a ticket to the first stop at Pembrey & Burry Port and then another (using the Railcard) to wherever they wish to travel. Does doing this also skew the statistics on how many people use particular stations and where they travel?

* 10.01 departure from Carmarthen to Manchester - which started from Milford Haven so will not be starting empty at Carmarthen. All the more reason to have Carmarthen passengers off and away on the 9.27 GWR train.

TfW are 100% free to request GWR to take their tickets on this service if they wish to. GWR would probably be quite amenable to doing so in exchange for a small sum... However I think that this is very unlikely. Not least because the 1006 departure is very unlikely to be full and standing from Carmarthen to Swansea. By the way I believe this service is booked a three car 175.

GWR will probably introduce their own Advance tickets for short journeys from Carmarthen when these new services begin.

 

[Haywain]

Isn't the point that this is for an infrequent train, rather than somewhere there is another 30 minutes (or less) later?

No, because as indicated above by @Watershed it's an addition to the existing service.

 

[Starmill]

Worth noting that the 1000 is speeded up again by 6 minutes for Carmarthen to Cardiff Central from the change date too, because it drops its stops at Llansamlet, Skewen, Briton Ferry and Baglan. It leaves Swansea 10 minutes later at 1055 and arrives at the same time of 1150 at Cardiff Central. An 1105 stopping service makes these calls.

 

[Envoy]

TfW are 100% free to request GWR to take their tickets on this service if they wish to. GWR would probably be quite amenable to doing so in exchange for a small sum... However I think that this is very unlikely. Not least because the 1006 departure is very unlikely to be full and standing from Carmarthen to Swansea. By the way I believe this service is booked a three car 175.

It may be booked as a 3 car 175 but goodness knows what will turn up with the way things have been recently at TfW? Once the 197’s are up and running, I understand that they will be 5 cars between Manchester and Swansea and only 2 cars west of Swansea. Not sure how they will be on loadings - especially as it will only be 1 train every 2 hours through to Milford Haven.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2023 ==

No, because as indicated above by @Watershed it's an addition to the existing service.

What’s that got to do with it? It’s a new service that goes through to southern England and eventually London. At present Carmarthen only has one direct early service to London in the morning and one back in the evening. Throughout the day, from the timetable change, it will be only 1 train every other hour. That’s why I say it would be mean of GWR to enforce this 9.30 restriction for 2 Together Railcard passengers from Carmarthen for the sake of 3 minutes. It will annoy the public when they should be doing everything possible to get them on board these new services.

 

[Snow1964]

There are hundred, if not thousands, of trains that stop somewhere just before 9:30 every day, you can’t create easements for them all, and you can’t move the time because then what about the trains that are now cut off by a minute.

If GWR are only running a service every 2 hours, then very strong case for an easement. There are lots of easements where next service is lot earlier than after 11am

I think generally easements are for relatively infrequent services where next train is over 30 minutes after normal cut-off time. No one expects an easement where services run multiple times an hour.

 

[Haywain]

There are lots of easements where next service is lot earlier than after 11am

Can you provide details of any easements that apply to use of the Two Together Railcard?

 

[RPI]

If GWR are only running a service every 2 hours, then very strong case for an easement. There are lots of easements where next service is lot earlier than after 11am

I think generally easements are for relatively infrequent services where next train is over 30 minutes after normal cut-off time. No one expects an easement where services run multiple times an hour.

Not where the two together railcard is involved, same with the 16-25, 26-30 and HMF railcard 10:00 minimum fare.

 

[Watershed]

What’s that got to do with it?

When you bought your Two Together Railcard, presumably the 09:27 hadn't been added to the timetable yet, and you were prepared to pay the £30 price for a Railcard that wasn't valid before 09:30. In other words, you were prepared to wait until (around) 10:00 to take a train from Carmarthen towards Swansea.

The introduction of the 09:27 doesn't change anything in that respect. You are no worse off than before or than you could have anticipated when buying your Railcard.

I'd have a lot more sympathy with your case if the 09:27 had previously been the 09:30, for instance. But that's just not the case - it's a brand new service.

It will annoy the public

Really? Will the average person be sufficiently well versed in the terms and conditions of their Railcard that they'll know the reason why the fare for the 09:27 is higher is because of the Railcard cutoff? And what percentage of overall passengers use a Two Together Railcard?

I think you are taking the fact that you're annoyed and extrapolating that to everyone else. I get it, it's annoying to have to pay a bit more for the sake of 3 minutes. But that's life; there will always have to be a cut-off somewhere.

they should be doing everything possible to get them on board these new services

They will likely be introducing Advance tickets that make it cheaper to use these services than later TfW ones. But as previously discussed, the aim isn't really to build up patronage; it's to make GUT go away. The DfT doesn't really care whether the new services are well patronised as they no doubt intend to withdraw them as soon as GUT have given up.

If GWR are only running a service every 2 hours, then very strong case for an easement.

If that were the only service from Carmarthen to Swansea, then perhaps I'd see a bit of merit in that argument. But it's not; later services provide connections into other GWR services towards London. Of course people prefer direct services, but there are analogous situations all over the country and yet there are no easements whatsoever to the 09:30 rule for Two Together Railcards.

There are lots of easements where next service is lot earlier than after 11am

Not for the Two Together Railcard!

 

[Sealink]

I checked and Railcard discount is offered on 0927 - although it is attached to an Advance fare.

 

[Watershed]

I checked and Railcard discount is offered on 0927 - although it is attached to an Advance fare.

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, the only Railcard which wouldn't be valid on the 09:27, but would be if it were 09:30, is the Two Together Railcard. As the name suggests, this requires two passengers.